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u/NobodyLikedThat1 4h ago
He doesn't. Christian theology has Satan as just another prisoner in hell, not its ruler
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u/aylaa157 3h ago
Also, isn't hell a lack of gods presence?And less so a place for torture and punishment.
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u/ArmenianThunderGod 3h ago
There's not really any clearly laid out or consistent depiction of hell. It's four different ideas (Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus) that have been conflated and smooshed together.
Sometimes it's eternal conscious torment, sometimes it's just the annihilation of the soul, sometimes it's a refining process that readies and cleanses people for heaven.
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u/letmeaskyouaquesti0n 3h ago
The last one would be purgatory not hell
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u/ArmenianThunderGod 3h ago
Purgatory isn't in the Bible either. Like Hell, it's a post biblical innovation. The separation of those two ideas came later as an attempt to create a reconciliation between two conflicting ideas.
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u/static-klingon 2h ago
This is the Protestant take on purgatory. Catholics believe passages from the Bible support the idea.
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u/Bad_Repute 1h ago
From what I remember of JW services, their version of hell is literally just death, the common grave, eternal nothingness. Only the anointed go to heaven and that’s a very small number of people. The righteous will rise from the grave to remake earth into Eden and live forever in earthen paradise, and the wicked just cease to exist when they die.
Of all the church services of various denominations I went to growing up, I liked their version the best. No fire and brimstone or eternal torment, and a built in premise that it will ultimately be up to humans to fix the problems we’ve caused on earth to remake it into a paradise.
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u/Soggy_Ad4531 52m ago
Yes Jehovahs Witnesses is one of the only groups that has decided annihilationism is the true conclusion of Hell
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u/Kester- 3h ago
This thought draws to a conclusion that if hell is place without god, also being in hell means you will be punished, therefore a place where there's no god a punishment by itself?
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u/Soggy_Ad4531 3h ago
Yes. I'm a Christian and this is spot on. All good is where God is, and being far away from God is inherently bad. Hell is when you reject to be with God in the afterlife and you are doomed to be forever in a Godless place.
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u/Tenshl 3h ago
So what stops the current life from being hell? For all we know, God is definitely absent and it could totally be afterlife right now.
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u/Soggy_Ad4531 2h ago
Good question. Our current life is infact closer to Hell than Heaven is. We are somewhat in the presence of God now, in Heaven we would be in His presence completely and in Hell we would be in his absence.
So think about it this way. In your life you have good and bad things. In Heaven those bad things wont exist, and in Hell those good things wont exist.
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u/Western-Boot-4576 3h ago
I don’t see how that’s different than our current world we live on for 80ish years
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u/Secure-Pain-9735 1h ago
There is no hell. That’s revisionism.
It’s a lake of fire. That’s it. That’s all. Eternal burning? Sure. Not much else.
Also: the serpent was just a serpent, satan is a title, not a name, and Lucifer was just an angel cast from heaven, not “the devil” or upper case S “Satan.” Satan, or diabolos, means “adversary, accuser, opposition” or “slanderer.”
All of that was externally edited in with context assimilated from non Abrahamic belief systems and mythologies and accepted as “cannon” colloquially.
Which means when we see references to “Satan” doing things (Job, tempting Jesus) it isn’t “the devil,” it’s more likely an angel or other agent of God performing the test.
Which is why Hebrew Yahweh is a scary and cruel motherfucker.
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u/dphamler 55m ago
Just piping in that Lucifer is really just the Latinization of a Canaanite god/goddess associated with the Morning Star (Venus) in one passage of the Hebrew Bible alluding to stories of said deity when talking about a king of Babylon.
My favorite example of how satan is just a title, is that wacky bit in Numbers with Balaam’s talking donkey.
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u/GlitteringParfait438 1h ago
Pretty much, aside from the Lake of Fire which is mentioned as replacing Hell post apocalypse, it largely seems like a dark lonely place
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u/TheSmokingHorse 4h ago edited 4h ago
Well exactly. So Satan isn’t the one doing the torturing. God is. God is the one torturing people in hell. He created beings who could think independently and disobey him, and created a torture chamber to put all the ones who inevitably disobeyed him in. Clearly god has an S&M fetish. I mean think about it. He created intelligent life and rather than elevating it to be the status of a god like himself, he instead just wants it to worship him or be tortured. What a fucking sadistic narcissistic psychopath of an intergalactic dictator.
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u/superbhole 3h ago edited 3h ago
Or, these elements of the story were added because they can be used to exert control over an ignorant population
Jesus was all about allegory and analogy, all the examples of "hell" are taken out of context from his analogies for the future. Heaven and hell weren't parallel universes or something, they're described as possibilities for the distant future: utopia or dystopia
He also gave warnings, in so many different ways, that there are hypocrites that would twist his words and spirituality in general, into being about control and heirarchy.
Much of the new testament is about jesus loathing hypocrites. It's a lot. Whipping street scammers out for doing scams in a spiritual place is a well-known one, but he also had a speech called the 7 woes where he goes on and on about how shitty things are because of hypocrites.
Luckily for civilization, agapic love and altruism are real and there are christians and theologians who did grasp what he was saying, but we definitely don't hear as much about the altruists as much as we do the people who claim to be "followers of christ" just for the label but far from understanding his intentions for civilization
Edit: to clarify, I just think Jesus was probably a chill dude that would do shrooms with you, but christianity is full of the people he was warning us about
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u/KenBoCole 3h ago
TBF, God created hell, before humans first sin.
The Bible implies it's also not quite an active choice, but that God and Sin can't coexist together, at all. Its like posion to him.
Jesus, which in Christian theology is supposed to be a part of God's soul, had to to go to hell because when he took humanity's sin, God had to cut himself of from him.
From what I understand, the Catholics really played up the whole "you sin you go to hell thing" as a form of social control, where Jesus amd the Mew Testament is alot more forgiven, and recognizes to sin is to be human.
You can still go to heaven if you sin, as long as you recognize Jesus's sacrifice.
The whole point of Jesus sacrificing himself was because Gkd realized the previous system was too strict and that humans were incapable of following it.
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u/im_just_a_nerd 2h ago
You did pretty good up until that last part where you said God made a mistake. According to theology he’s omniscient which means he knew he put a flawed system in place? Therefore he isn’t a perfect God? Every church I’ve been too says God is perfect.
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u/WickedSerpent 1h ago
Yes, it were no misstake theologically speaking, as it's all part of his plan. He leads humans evolution without controlling it directly, like a farmer growing produce or some IT company training an LLM.
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u/Flakester 49m ago
Would that not imply that God has already chosen who goes to hell?
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u/Zsobrazson 23m ago
It does actually, that's where Calvinism comes from, which believes in pre-destination
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u/domestic_omnom 31m ago
Part of the problem is that Protestants read revelation and take it literally. Outside revelations, he'll is described as a place of darkness without the presents of God. Revelation was written during the time of early persecutions so the "damnation" thing was symbolic of real life at the time. The early church debated for literal hundreds of years if revelation should even be included. It was ultimately included because of the symbolism relevant to the time.
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u/TheSmokingHorse 3h ago
That’s even worse. The idea that a torture chamber has been created to torture people in, but even some of the worst murderers can get a free pass if they just go “Okay, I accept Jesus” on their deathbed.
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u/BranchOk9570 3h ago
You can't just say "okay I accept Jesus" and suddenly you're on the team. You have to feel actual remorse for your sins, and actually accept him into your heart to be on the team. Just saying okay I accept you is not good enough because he knows your inner thoughts "blessed are the poor in spirit, for theres is the kingdom of heaven" if you truly understand, and feel remorse for your misdeeds, and want to be better, and in your heart TRULY need and want him to save you he will. Too often people believe that just saying "nah I do love Jesus" is a get out of jail free card but it's not, you can't walk beside him, and simultaneously commit atrocities against your fellow man, it doesn't work that way, when you do the work with him he works within you. If you're so freely able to kill, and rape, and harm other beings the holy spirit is not working within you, and therefore you are not saved. Just talking the talk isn't good enough, you must walk the walk. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!"
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u/SilverOne5265 2h ago
Dunno bro, I would not care to add prerequisites to the gift of salvation. Be relieved that you have accepted it, be relieved that it is available to be accepted or stand firm in the certainty that you have deliberatetly rejected the gift for whatever the motive was.
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u/Flakester 45m ago
That's how it works in theory, right? But if you go over to X and look at any MAGA proud Christian nationalist with "Christ" in their bio, and they'll tell you differently.
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u/Flakester 47m ago
Right, that's my problem with religion.
You could be a saint, you could be pure and kind and generous and loving to everyone on the planet and do all the right things, but aren't religious or just follow a different religion.
...Or you can be a piece of shit to other humans most of the time, but you went to church and repented every Sunday, so you get to go to heaven and they burn in hell.
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u/jkurratt 2h ago
Interesting.
In Bleach Hell existed even before Soul King created the Three Worlds from the primordial world. 🤔15
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u/Trashinmyash 3h ago
So, give everyone Free Will just to torture them for not being obedient?
Thats a fun little nugget to ponder upon.
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u/AffectionateSafe3787 3h ago
You a brave one to wrote that statements... I just hoping not to be sent into hell for laughing at it.
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u/Berlin8Berlin 3h ago
"He created intelligent life..."
And then punishes it for its design flaws? Psycho.
Glad it's just a goofy fucking cartoon.
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u/Jormungand1342 3h ago
I had a slightly different take. Im super agnostic.
God is all knowing and super powerful in his realm. He created us, and knows what had happened and what will. But he cant change it.
If you created something and gave them "rules" to live by and a bunch of them ignored it and hurt the ones listening you would be missed to.
He tortures the evil ones because hes pissed they didnt listen.
"If hes all powerful why dosent he stop it."
He is all powerful in heaven. He cant effect earth at all/anymore. All he can do is watch as part of his creation hurts and kills another part that wants to be happy.
So he sends them to a place they deserve.
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u/Artistic-Season7497 3h ago
But what if someone is a completely moral and good person, they just don’t believe in him? They deserve to burn, too?
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u/TesterM0nkey 2h ago
Hell isn’t a specific place in Christian theology it’s not being able to be in the presence of god. You’re basically torturing yourself with the idea that you could be in heaven.
From my understanding it’s a you don’t get dessert type situation
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u/Western-Boot-4576 3h ago
Is the devil not Lucifer?
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u/raidenjojo 2h ago
Lucifer, "light bringer" is his original name. His titles, "Devil" and "Satan" means "Slanderer" and "Enemy" respectively.
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u/Western-Boot-4576 2h ago
And in Christianity the devil, satan, Lucifer doesn’t rule hell?
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u/raidenjojo 2h ago
Absolutely not, no. No one rules Hell. Lucifer is roaming the earth, seeking whom to corrupt and bring to his side, because he knows his defeat is a foregone conclusion.
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u/Western-Boot-4576 3h ago
What does Christianity say about heaven?
Pretty much whenever I think of “heaven”. I think the “free will” god supposedly granted to us is taken away
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u/Soggy_Ad4531 3h ago
Heaven is basically being with God, in a perfect, uncorrupted world, like a paradise. We don't know exactly what it would physically mean, or if Heaven even is "physical". But it basically is a place of perfection and the presence of God (which is a requirement for the perfection).
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u/Western-Boot-4576 3h ago
Humans aren’t perfect, so your free will is taken away in heaven. Replaced with God presence.
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u/Soggy_Ad4531 2h ago
I think our imperfections are an important part of who we are. So if we would completely leave our free will and personalities behind, we wouldn't really get in Heaven "as ourselves". But I think in Heaven we are so close to God we don't feel any urge to sin.
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u/Western-Boot-4576 2h ago
Then your free will is taken away cause sometimes you sin without even knowing you sin.
Pride is a sin, you don’t feel pride in heaven?
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u/Soggy_Ad4531 1h ago
This is of course a conversation on details that are very open in Christian theology, but imo yes, sinful pride doesn't exist in Heaven, even though free will may exist.
All pride isn't sinful. Being proud of yourself because you did a good deed is fine. But being overly prideful to the point where it hurts others is sinful. In Heaven, I think such feeling wont exist.
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u/Western-Boot-4576 1h ago
Would “perfection” be feeling empathy for those who aren’t in heaven, rather than pride for being one of the people in heaven?
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u/Soggy_Ad4531 1h ago
Yes I think that makes sense
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u/Western-Boot-4576 53m ago
So pride isn’t in heaven but humanity is very prideful. That’s just an example I thought of instantly but I’m sure there is more and better examples.
I just don’t see how you can get perfection out of humanity without taking away their free will. If they simply don’t feel any urge to sin anymore, that was taken away from them.
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u/Big-Illustrator-6143 2h ago
wait so satan is in hell getting tortured like everyone else ? Then why is he brought up so much as this big baddy ?
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u/Soggy_Ad4531 1h ago
Because Dante Alighieri wrote a horror fanfic where he put political rivals in a physical burning Hell and made Satan torture them. This book got very popular and we're still suffering from it's consequences.
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u/RampantJellyfish 1h ago
Yes, in Dante's inferno Satan is entombed in ice in the lowest circle of hell, reserved for betrayers
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u/Flakester 52m ago
So you're saying there are no rules.
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u/ShackletonsVael 49m ago
The rules are that eternal torture and suffering is something a loving God would allow to permit for eternity. I mean this is the same God that will allow children to suffer and die from cancers and such, so really it does actually align with Gods clear and obvious thinking when it comes to morality.
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u/I-am-Pilgrim 37m ago
So Satan is not the ruler of hell. Then who is?
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u/NobodyLikedThat1 21m ago
It's God's prison for the fallen angels and such, so presumably God. It's supposed to be an eternal pit of fire, so I'm not sure there's any sort of internal governance.
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u/sorry_con_excuse_me 4h ago edited 4h ago
Yeah it’s more like a “misery loves company” situation IIRC. God’s setting up the torture, cause he’s a fucking prick (e.g. “Hey Satan, check out how bad I’m gonna fuck with this Job dude, and he’ll still suck my dick”).
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u/Relative-Relief-8816 4h ago
YHWH was the caananite god of war so it checks out.
Its no surprise the god of war values loyalty above everything else, including being a decent being.
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u/sorry_con_excuse_me 4h ago
Right. A god who demands that sort of undying loyalty and praise is a petulant child, which is why even as an atheist I recognize/respect that other world religions have much more profound ideas about the nature of existence, even if I don’t believe in them.
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u/Relative-Relief-8816 3h ago
I am down with Taoism/Bhuddism but their shit is still prettty wierd with the statues and stuff. Atheism is ironically the best religious stance, even though agnostic is a more pragmatic approach.
"If there is a creator of the universe, all I know is that it isnt one written about by any of you people."
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u/sorry_con_excuse_me 3h ago edited 3h ago
I would say I’m an agnostic atheist. I.e. the ultimate nature of a creator, universe, existence, etc. is fundamentally unknowable and unfalsifiable, so at that omniscient scale it’s just a completely irrelevant question or proposition.
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u/16c7x 4h ago
Who's in charge then?
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u/LordCaptain 4h ago
No one. Generally, although it varies between christian sects, "Hell" is basically just self exclusion from the presence of God in the afterlife. Which is itself a form of punishment in Christian eyes. Sinners though are unable or unwilling in the afterlife to be in God's presence. The hellfire torture thing is just a common understanding of Hell popularized (but not fully invented by) Dante.
I am not an expert on this and am sure I am not capturing the full complexity of it.
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u/LordCaptain 4h ago edited 3h ago
I think this is a misinterpretation of Christian Hell. Generally, although it varies between christian sects, "Hell" is basically just self exclusion from the presence of God in the afterlife. Which is itself a form of punishment in Christian eyes. Sinners though are unable or unwilling in the afterlife to be in God's presence. The hellfire torture thing is just a common understanding of Hell popularized (but not fully invented by) Dante.
I am not an expert on this and am sure I am not capturing the full complexity of it.
Also there is often a difference between what is technically Canon in a religion and understood by its scholars and the consensus understanding by the attendees.
Edit: I do want to clarify a misinterpretation of many or most Christian Hells as I understand they are taught. I'm sure many sects do absolutely teach fire and brimstone Hells.
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u/gradedhammeraction 3h ago
Idk about fire and brimstone, but “weeping and gnashing of teeth” is a famous verbatim description. Certainly not pleasant lol
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u/LordCaptain 3h ago
Yeah I feel like I wasn't clear that it is still absolutely described as a place of suffering.
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u/macrocosm93 2h ago edited 2h ago
I don't think that's really correct.
In Mark 9:43-48, Jesus himself describes hell as a place "where the fire never goes out". He also paraphrases Isaiah 66:24 where he describes hell as a place where "the worms that eat them will not die, and the fires that burn them will not be quenched".
In Matthew 8:12, Jesus describes hell as "an outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth", and then repeats that same statement again in Matthew 22:13 and 25:30. Then in Matthew 25:31-48 he describes hell as an "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" and explicitly describes it as "eternal punishment".
And then Revelations 20:10 states "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophets are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever."
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u/inih 3h ago
So god is not omnipresent?
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u/LordCaptain 2h ago
Interesting question. I have no idea what a theologist would answer to this.
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u/Soggy_Ad4531 57m ago
An actual theologian would probably say that God being always present everywhere isn't explicitly stated in the Bible, and rather God can be omnipresent because he is all powerful and outside our reality as we understand it. Hence God can, with all his power, simply decide to not be in Hell, even if he could be.
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u/IndubitablyNerdy 1h ago
the way I think it is easy to reconcile the two things is that god would still exist in hell as omnipresence implies that he is everywhere, but you'd not be able to be with him \ sense him and experience the eternal bliss that is supposed to be being in god presence.
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u/ThatOneHebdoCartoon 4h ago
No where in the Bible does it say that you go to hell and are punished by Satan for eternity.
Four different words are commonly translated to "Hell", but hell itself is not a named place said to contain Lucifer.
Imagery of a "fiery furnace" and "eternal darkness" have led some to INFER hell, but other theologians argue it means the destruction of the spirit.
Almost all hell imagery is a creation of the medieval period.
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u/Soggy_Ad4531 3h ago
Destruction of the spirit actually makes a lot of sense. Heaven is a perfect place where you are with God, and Hell is a place without God. God is also omnipotent. This means Hell could in theory mean the person disappearing from existence, a.k.a. the destruction of their soul.
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u/ThatOneHebdoCartoon 2h ago
The argument has a lot of believers with people who view Heaven as essentially becoming one with God again. You lose who you had been and re enter into perfect union with God. So, with that in mind, Hell would be the complete and total lack of union with God. Which leads to destruction of the spirit.
The arguments are infinitely more interesting than "eternal torment with pitchfork warden"
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u/Helpful-Study4842 2h ago
God is also omnipresent so he would be in hell if it existed.
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u/Soggy_Ad4531 2h ago
No, I said Hell could be understood as you burning away and disappearing from this world, and being doomed to non-existence. You wouldn't be in God's presence anymore.
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u/Helpful-Study4842 2h ago
What do you mean "no"? I'm agreeing with you. If hell were a place God would be there because he is omnipresent. Hell isn't a place, it doesn't exist.
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u/Soggy_Ad4531 2h ago
Oh yeah, sorry I completely misunderstood you. I agree with you instead. This thought process of Hell is very logical.
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u/tds5049 2h ago
I've recently come around on annihilationism. ECT makes no sense if you really are separated from the one holding all things together. Plus all the destruction language.
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u/Soggy_Ad4531 1h ago
Yes it does make sense when you reject the "traditional" view of Hell as a physical burning place and try to just think about it logically. I'm a Lutheran personally and usually on theological details like this Lutherans just end up agreeing that we can't know what's true, so that's how my view of this will remain. But I do think this annihilationism is very curious and very possible.
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u/ashkiller14 1h ago
Another one, satan isn't called lucifer. It's literally only used once to mock the king of babylon. Theyre mockingly calling the king their savior or "shining light" as the translation puts it.
Now how people related satan, literally meaning ultimate evil/opposition, with lucifer, meaning saving grace, I have no idea.
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u/Garlic-Rough 4h ago
Modern Western concept of Christian hell comes from Norse mythology Hel where there are souls and beings "ruling". This has been co-opted in the modern imagery of the Biblical "gehena" where there is gnashing of teeth and burning sulfur - also another imagery meaning something else.
But nothing in the Bible says Satan rules hell. In fact, Satan rules the mortal realm as the prince of deception, as per scripture.
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u/charmio68 3h ago
Yep. Satan sitting on a throne in Hell torturing human souls comes from literary works like John Milton’s Paradise Lost and Dante Alighieri’s Inferno.
It's interesting to see how quickly that went from literary fiction to religious belief. It's actually a good case study for how religions start in the first place.
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u/Own_Employment_3866 4h ago
Im really curious to know where the idea that satan tortures bad people in hell came from? None of the major religions have anything that might be intepreted like this.
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u/Soggy_Ad4531 2h ago
There were various mythologies with a similar-ish hell. For example Norse mythology. So a vision of an afterlife that existed among medieval peoples.
Then came Dante Alighieri, the Italian writer who had serious beef with some guys and still held a crudge toward Brutus and Judas, for example. He wanted to write them in Hell and make the Hell a terrible-feeling place, one that people could understand and fear. His writings became popular and that's how the modern mainstream view of Hell as this burning lair of Satan came to be.
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u/no_crust_buster 1h ago
Because hell-fire dogma isn't in the Bible.That's man-made to keep people coming to church and tithing. As it turns out, fear is a WONDERFUL motivator not just in religion, but in politics as well.
Plus, it's antithetical to God's teachings at James 1:13, that evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone. But Satan would love to make people believe that God is behind it all... (1 John 5:19)
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u/Guidance_Weak 3h ago edited 3h ago
Not religious but my interpretation was always that Lucifer was banished from heaven for having his own idea on divine order and he runs his own kingdom that’s pretty similar but happens to also punish sinners.
As a story, I always took it to imply that Lucifer had his own system he believed in which included punishing sinners and atonement. Rather than damning or torturing sinners to hell, God just doesn’t allow them into his kingdom, they fall to where Lucifer was banished from heaven, so they’re left to his church, where their sins will be punished rather than forgiven.
That way god can still be portrayed as “all-loving” and not as someone responsible for the damning of souls. It also gives a window where the people who aren’t religious, or the people the Church wants to convert aren’t doomed to a “bad place” just missing out on that unconditional love of God.
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u/joeybonts_ 3h ago
God's kind of a dick then
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u/Guidance_Weak 2h ago edited 1h ago
100%
Even religious people who’ve read the Old Testament can see that.
I went to a religious school and was trying to be imaginative to plug all the plot holes in the stories we read.
But if you go to a religious school you will come out non-religious. Like secular is too religious of a word for me to describe it.
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u/glizzyMaster108 2h ago
Evil can simply just not exist in proximity to him, but Jesus allows us to strip evil from ourselves
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u/Ok-Wasabi2873 1h ago
There’s a short story by Ted Chiang called “Hell is the Absence of God”.
You may know him for “Story of Your Life” which the movie “Arrival” is based on.
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u/Guidance_Weak 1h ago
I didn’t know that was based on a book.
Gives me Jeff Vandermeer/ Annihilation vibes, thanks for the rec, I’ll look at both.1
u/_3C3B40 2h ago
So, if you piously praise the supreme demiurge for forgiveness your crimes will be pardoned, but under the governance of the morning star consequences are dealt regardless of sycophancy? jk I know it's not that.
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u/Guidance_Weak 1h ago
It’s not that consequences are dealt, it’s that God washes his hands of making the decision on consequences, like Pontius Pilate to Jesus.
Again, not religious and don’t care. But I went to Catholic school and do like Literature so I still like to noodle on the stories
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u/El_Zapp 3h ago
Just a quick reminder that hell doesn’t exist in the original text and was a fabrication added later as a control mechanism to oppress people.
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u/owlsareallies 3h ago edited 2h ago
Revelations is such a cool read if you understand it’s dripping in symbolism and metaphor. Unfortunately it also became the chapter that allowed Christians to justify nearly anything because it was too deep for its own audience and the mythology around the “end times” eventually were accepted at face value.
It was written on a Greek island in the Aegean Sea and was very obviously inspired by Greek and Roman mythology. I would bet John the Apostle had read Virgil and Homer. Virgil was only a couple generations before his.
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u/Good_Butterscotch_69 4h ago
The Great accuser is still in heaven and has free leave to leave and come as he does to make accusations against us before the lord. Viggo Morgensens devil says it best. "Do you know what Hell really is, Thomas? It's not lakes of burning oil or chains of ice. It's being removed from God's sight, having His Word taken from you. It's hard to believe. so hard. I know that better than anyone."
To go to hell is when god has finally removed you from his gaze. A grace you did not know you had. And it is an agony that will never end.
He will only be cast out fully at the last judgement.
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u/Bogusky 4h ago
Ex-Mormon here. Here's a different take in case anyone finds it interesting.
In the theology I grew up in, we don't believe in a literal Hell where you're tortured for eternity. Instead, being damned has more to do with your progression being capped. So instead of being able to ascend to an eventual godhood, you're essentially stuck in a 'lower class,' living with the eternal regret of an opportunity lost.
But yeah, no torture, no constant pain. In fact, our founder once said that if we saw what Hell looked like we'd commit suicide to get there.
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u/SameAgainTheSecond 3h ago
In paradise lost, hell its self is torture, but Lucifer and the daemons are trying to do their best in the situation.
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u/ReformedWretch1689 2h ago
Satan isn’t torturing anyone in hell. That’s the place for God’s wrath.
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u/ThelIIusion0fSeIf 2h ago
It's all make believe anyway so you might as well be asking why Santa Claus rewards rich kids with more presents than poor kids irrespective of their behavior.
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u/No_Reception7275 4h ago
I kinda liked the Supernatural premise where hes just eternally in rage over being stuck there and youre the nearest punching bag
Although in actual scripture hes just another resident and the whole literal firey torture prison doesnt really exist
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u/Forsaken_Celery8197 3h ago
I thought hell was supposed to be just not as great as heaven, so the terrible part was not being so close to god?
If satan was just torturing souls that made it into hell, a plausible explanation could be to turn them into crazy demons. Torture campaigns can and do create radicals.
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u/MongooseOne 3h ago
I know this meme is trying to bait believers but all it shows is how little you know about the religion you are making fun of.
Satan torturing those in hell is Dante’s Inferno or Hollywood, not the Bible.
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u/TorinEkenskolde 4h ago
Should have checked if that was an actual doctrine before posting this.
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u/Soggy_Ad4531 2h ago
Reddit atheists keep reposting this as well. Same exact image copy pasted every month.
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u/Livid-Revolution918 3h ago edited 3h ago
According to Christian theology, hell isn't where you literally get tortured - it's just that you are stuck there with Satan and other bad people for rest of eternity
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u/gnosis2737 4h ago
Lucifer didn't rebell because he hated God, he rebelled because God loved humans more. So, human sinners are stuck in Hell with a fallen angel who hates and blames them for his exile.
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u/BulldogChair 4h ago
Fun fact: no where in the Bible does it state the “hell” as most people define it today exists.
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u/zurenarrh36912 3h ago
To find out God and Heaven are real and amazing, then knowingly being eternally separated from that would torture. The concept of pitchforks and demons eating your genitals is pop culture.
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u/SkellyboneZ 3h ago
This is some "reddit atheist" argument at best or some r/im14andthisisdeep shit at worst. Take a least two seconds to google something JFC.
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u/PallbearerOfBadNews 1h ago
Because all religion is made up, and is used as a tool to govern and control the masses. Every religion breaks down when you apply critical thinking to its stories and rules
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u/Dry_Razzmatazz69 4h ago
Ignoring the obvious reddit atheist moment and assuming the cartoon understanding of hell and the statement in the OP. It's because satan's ultimate purpose would be disobedience i.e. sin. And torturing people for pleasure, for etenrity is very sinful.
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u/Impressive_Dingo122 4h ago
He doesn’t. Earth is the real hell, and that’s why people who sacrifice their morals and soul are elevated in this material world and given all the riches.
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3h ago
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u/Perfect-Fondant3373 3h ago
Does he even in the lore? Isn't it just eternal damnation? Like does that mean torture?
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u/Soggy_Ad4531 2h ago
To be away from God is torture, because everything good comes from God.
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u/Perfect-Fondant3373 2h ago
Idk, the further I get from church heads the happier I feel
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u/Soggy_Ad4531 1h ago
There's a few points to be made here
1. church heads aren't God
2. you could happen to have terrible church heads. they're just people, after all.
3. you could live in the illusion that they are bad people, because you dislike the church and hence assume that anything the church heads stand for is evil. this could only be fixed by getting to know them.
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3h ago
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u/GroundbreakingElk139 3h ago
Isn't that how prisons actually work? I'm not scared of the warden I'm scared of my cell mate being bigger and hornier.
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u/BreadfruitLogic 3h ago
The story of Lucifer is very much a story of a jealous first born child who hates their younger handicapped sibling who gets all the attention. They are always trying to get their younger sibling in trouble too so they both get sent to timeout.
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u/Conscious_Ideal_7946 3h ago
More informed answers were already given, this one I came up with just thinking about that on my own, so no theological value here.
Maybe it's not like he wants to, but is somehow made to do it. Idk about angels and free will, or if "no" is really an option to a direct order here. That would sound like a pretty good/cruel punishment. Forcing Satan to torture like minded humans for all eternity.
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u/Soggy_Ad4531 2h ago
Good thoughts but let's not forget that in actual Christian theology Satan doesn't actually torture anyone in hell. But he does try to bring people there to suffer with him.
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u/Mean-Career-6509 2h ago
It was this very conversation that made me see it was all bullshit. I was talking with my dad and I asked to confirm "god made everything? Like there was nothing before god? He made the devil too? God knows everything? So he knew the devil would do what he did and fall from grace? So god made him a failure, on purpose? He serves a purpose that God needs... I feel bad for the devil" and this is when my dad lost his shit a beat me for questioning God's word.
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u/CommonReason6709 2h ago
God supposedly tests people too and puts them through the ringer who can take it.
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u/Delta_pinapple 1h ago
Satan is merely old Hebrew for opposition, in the book of job satan is an angel
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u/GlitteringParfait438 1h ago
Satan doesn’t torture people in hell, in fact he largely seems to avoid it in the same way a criminal avoids a prison.
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u/Informal-Orange2732 55m ago
Most Christians believe the devil will be in torment like the rest of the humans there.
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u/Ultraslick 44m ago
Are we still talking about this god character?
Seemed like more of a fad. Family traditions carry down things like religion and politics.
Hopefully most people see how being a “good Christian” often times means rejecting societal change and advancement.
But a lot of us are smart enough to see through that sham and make our own decisions. It’s a cult of reinforced ignorance.
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u/Stampy77 4h ago
I've always had a question. To Christianity all of the fun shit is a sin.
Sinners take drugs, have a lot of sex, eat meat whenever they like, they gamble they drink, they have a good time.
If you want to get into heaven you have to be pious which means church every Sunday, prayers all the time, women can't do shit. So much of the religious stuff is boring as fuck.
So why would heaven be fun if it's just going to be more of that. And on the other side, if hell is full of all the sinners aren't they just going to be doing all the fun shit down there?
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u/peterpangoni 3h ago
heaven and hell are symbols for mental conditions you can experience here on earth. If you do the things you describe and be a "sinner", you will most likely end up in a really hellish mental state. No family, nihilism, no accomplishment, only short term pleasure with nothing on the long run. It's hedonistic fun yes, but look at the burnt out corpses this lifestyle produces.
Then again, look at the disciplined people that sacrifice these short term pleasures for long term success. They arrive in mental heaven.
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u/Altruistic_Story257 2h ago
This. As someone who suffered from chronic depression ever since I could remember and then woke up one Saturday about 6 Mos ago... and that part of me was simply... gone. I can't help but feel like I was being made to pay my dues for something? The only thing I changed in my life was striving to do better, be a better person, and be transparent whenever possible. It's a very strange feeling. I have never felt so at peace and content in my life.
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u/GrimPotatoKing 4h ago
Satan in hell is part of the Dante's inferno Christianity made up 1000 years later later to force all the sheep to obey.
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u/modsaretoddlers 3h ago
Well, the whole thing that made Satan rebel against God was that Satan hated humanity and didn't understand why he should take a backseat to us.
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