r/classicwow • u/AnonBB21 • 6d ago
Forever Beta Feedback Aggrend: Next weeks Developer Podcast will be about Classes
https://x.com/AggrendWoW/status/2103538272429601252173
u/pilot1337 6d ago
I'm already at 100 rage.
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u/Touchd93 6d ago
Unlike warriors in forever
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u/Sawgon 5d ago
At least you guys show up in patch notes. Rogues got 1 line.
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u/Synchrotr0n 5d ago
And Shamans got multiple ones, but they were all nerfs with the exception of the change to the completely nonsensical scaling between level 3 and 4 Lightning Bolt that made the higher rank spell deal less DPS.
It's hilarious how people are still completely in denial that Blizzard has no idea what they are doing with Shaman, thinking that things will magically improve by the end of the beta when there would be no more time to test anything even if they did a full rework to the class.
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u/new_math 5d ago
At least it was a fairly substantial change though? It's not like the only mention was a niche pvp flagging bug fix or something.
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u/karrotwin 6d ago
Hope they clearly outline their philosophy about hybrid tax. Most of the balance issues in vanilla outside of world buffs came down to hybrid taxes and the inconsistency of how they were applied.
Is hybrid tax gone or is the tax rate simply lower? If lower, what counts as a hybrid? Eg why isn't warrior a hybrid?
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u/gabo2007 6d ago
Gone? The spell power changes make the hybrid tax more glaring than ever.
Feral druids and enhancement shamans will do something like 60% less damage with spells and noticeably less healing unless they change something.
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u/karrotwin 6d ago
That's why we need to understand the philosophy. but technically what you're talking about isn't a hybrid tax, it's a nerf to off role hybrid gameplay... which maybe makes sense if it's paired with hybrids being 100% as effective as pure classs in their primary role.
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u/SkipX 5d ago
This. If healers deal the same damage as non healer classes the added healing would make them op in pvp.
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u/karrotwin 5d ago
To be fair I think this oversimplifies a lot. Burst damage, crowd control, and kicks matter a lot more than "a DPS class can heal itself" - but yes you need balance, every kit should have downsides.
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u/Synchrotr0n 5d ago edited 5d ago
Even if they buffed Mental Quickness to grant 100% of the intellect as extra spell power, Enhancement Shamans would still struggle to scale up because intellect is a secondary attribute that would have to be taken in place of critical strike chance or agility, which means less consistent flurry procs.
Contrary to Elemental Shaman where the main problem is mostly spell power scaling, the talent tree of Enhancement Shaman is fundamentally broken in WoW Forever and nothing but a full rework will fix it, but the latest patch notes didn't inspire any confidence that Blizzard will make big changes to Enhancement.
Sadly, that will force me to pick other class as my main because I refuse to go through the same situation I've experienced during the launch of WoW SoD, when Shamans sucked, and in WoW Forever things would be even worse since there will be no level caps and the first raids will open after a month.
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u/jermikemike 6d ago
It's the number one thing they need to speak openly about, imo. It's going to huge indicator of whether or not you're just nerfing yourself by playing a non-hybrid.
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u/zellmerz 6d ago
Personally I’ve felt hybrid tax should generally lean more towards healers since there is more opportunity for them to flex their hybrid strengths, but there is still something to be said about why warrior specifically is treated differently.
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u/Commercial-Ad-1328 6d ago
It's now a hybrid bonus. Non hybrids now are taxed
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u/HandholdingFetishist 5d ago
Are you just unaware of the spell base damage changes or something?
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u/memekid2007 5d ago
Yes. Andy's identity is centered around never knowing too much about anything he appears to be interested in because that's sweaty.
Patch notes are for nerds and tryhards.
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u/Awe_kek 6d ago edited 6d ago
Would like to hear about their intentions with Shaman tanks, obviously they thought about it. (Rockbiter still having increased threat, parry/threat, imp. SS, dodge and stamina talents)
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u/SpunkMcKullins 6d ago
Believe they already confirmed Shaman tank is something they'll look at down the line, but launch they just want all the specs up and running in their new form.
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u/Remidial 5d ago
When aggrend was asked the question he actually laughed and grouped them in with warlock tanks. It’s clear they don’t care for shaman tank in raids or it would’ve made it in. I’m disappointed by this
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u/Designer-Message-685 6d ago
Yeah they made a bunch of talent changes that would imply the existence of Shaman tanking and then left it completely out otherwise.
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u/Vio94 5d ago
It feels like it's just "play enhance for PvP" design. But literally all they need to do is add a talent that supports wielding a shield, which it already had but they removed for some reason.
Or they could change the Lightning Shield +%damage talent to something that supports tanking (since basically nobody takes it anyway) and have Shaman be a 2h tank.
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u/RTheCon 5d ago
I just want them to utilise stoneclaw. Nobody used to specced the 2/2 talent for it. So make that our taunt somehow, and mitigation at the same time. Like 2/2 gives it 20% of our stamina or something, and first pulse puts the shaman and totem on the top of the threat table (like a taunt)
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u/Hitwelve 6d ago
What talents are in Forever for shamans that weren't already in Classic for tanking?
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u/zummm72 5d ago
The biggest one is the new talent “Spirit Weapons” that increases all threat generated while Rockbiter weapon is active by 30%”. Also the change to Fire Nova totem to be a spell instead of a totem gives Shaman tanks a good AoE.
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u/lollerlaban 5d ago
And then they moved elemental fury so far down in the elemental tree that enhancement cant get it, so much for aoe threat
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u/Coaxke 5d ago
Why bring that up without mentioning Blizzard already called out the ripple effects on enhancement. They didn't move fury with zero intention of adjustment for enhance.
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u/Designer-Message-685 5d ago
They made a talent that rewards you for building parry and dodge by resetting storm strike every time you dodge or parry.
They also heavily juiced threat on rockbiter with a talent too.
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u/BarrettRTS 5d ago
To add to what others have said, running out of mana was one of Shaman Tank's biggest issues back in the 2019 version of Classic (I tanked everything up to and including MC/Ony). Having a shitload of mana regen baked into the tree is going to help a lot.
The big tests are going to be how it handles incoming damage and what threat is like without an actual taunt button. The latter can maybe be overcome with Stormstrike+ES just rocketing the shaman up in threat, but it'll need to be seen.
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u/SlyFisch 6d ago
PLEASE talk about plans for Rogue Aggrend, don't give a new class abilities we're begging for :(
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u/Telyesumpin 5d ago
Rogue's talents need a big overhaul. Subtlety looks anemic unless you want to spend 10 points on stealth talents and 2 in improved distract.......
They should move Seal Fate and Cold Blood to Subtlety along with all the Backstab talents. So Sub is Backstab/Hemmorage with Rupture/Eviserate as finishers.
Combat should get Ghostly Strike.
I wish Mutilate wouldn't have been brought to Forever but since it is now then Assassination is Mutilate/Poisons.
Those are just my ideas. I played almost exclusively 31/8/13 Seal Fate in Vanilla. My preference would be Mutilate is removed and all the poisons so Assassination is Backstab focused but I doubt that happens.
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u/Drev09 5d ago
30 8 13 build! Was great if everything crit, terrible if it didn't. This tree does alleviate many issues with classic rogue tree, but leaves a few and adds things that just suck. 31 point sub and assass abilities are garbage and boring.
We'll see
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u/KJTB 5d ago edited 5d ago
The 31 point sub talent makes no sense to me, along with the push for using rupture. The 31 point talent only applies to the NEXT hemo or backstab… both of these are your combo point generators. You’ll be lucky to have it proc once before your next hemo or backstab, so wow a whole 3 less energy every so often! So dull. Do they want us to just dead zone bleed kite everything? That’s so lame. And then there’s the weird push for rupture. You don’t really use rupture much in PvP outside of bleed kiting warriors/hunters in their dead zone. Otherwise rupture actively works against you since it breaks your gouge and your blind. Do they want these for pve? I see no world in which you’re going 31 points into sub for pve.
Assa it remains to be seen how good poisons actually are with attack power scaling. It’s concerning that there might be encounters that are just straight up poison immune too. Even still, it’s a really boring talent. Just another slice and dice like upkeep button. Something like marked for death would have been way more exciting.
Currently it looks like combat swords will be the go to for pve, which plays exactly the same, and for PvP cold blood hemo swords/daggers. The talents do allow for some more experimentation (I was able to build a lot) but the end of the trees just suck
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u/Drev09 5d ago
Couldn't agree more. I was partial to combat daggers in classic, and the improved BS talent makes that more dynamic for CP generation.
But yes, the bottom of the trees are just abysmal, considering what could have been added.
Like, 31 pt sub talent: blind / gouge made to not break on the applying rogues bleed / poison dots.
IMO sub should have always been dots & elusiveness, assassination openers and finishers, combat, well, combat and going toe to toe. But nooooo we get garbage.
At least they mostly fixed opportunity.
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u/Telyesumpin 5d ago
I had T2 raid gear mixed with Marshal PVP gear. Had like 38% crit if I remember correctly.
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u/Tatertinytoast 5d ago
Backstab is incompatible with leveling
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u/Telyesumpin 5d ago
That's why I would have Hemmorage and Backstab tied together in a tree. I would move Hemmorage to an 11 point talent and use SS until you could pick it up while leveling.
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u/SlyFisch 5d ago
If you have a tank while you level with it's fine, but yeah solo leveling it's just a pain in the ass.
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u/SlyFisch 5d ago
Well put. I'm thinking about just going something nutty like 22 / 8 / 21 or something to that effect just to have some kind of change. I been theory crafting some builds just to finally play something different and have more buttons to press, I just don't think it will be very good lolol
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u/TheSiegmeyerCatalyst 5d ago
What's the deal with rogue?
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u/SlyFisch 5d ago edited 5d ago
Basically pretty close to unchanged from vanilla. Everyone got new toys and we're over here pressing the same few buttons in PvE. They attempted to shake things up by adding some new talents into the Assassination and Sub trees to make them poison (assass) and bleed (sub) focused but honestly either half assed it or don't have anyone who plays rogue.
Combat will probably still be the best spec so that means either sinister strike or backstab + slice n dice upkeep with blade flurry every 2 mins and coldblooded if you spec into it. Basically unchanged, 2 button rotation with 2 cool downs. Sub will be the same as combat just with added bleed/hemo upkeep and most likely no blade flurry or cold blooded (and the keystone Sub talent is a passive that looks... Pretty bad). Assassination could be interesting but poisons still have charges so you'll run out multiple times in one dungeon run with the way things currently are, making you have to reapply pretty often. Oh, and the Assass keystone talent is... Another finishing move that gives a poison buff to upkeep lol
Just really bland uninteresting ideas, and the math isn't mathing on any of it. Kinda feels short sighted or neglected.
Edit: and forgot to mention a lot of stuff resists poisons and/or bleeds. So those specs aren't even useable in a lot of content.
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u/bm001 5d ago
Edit: and forgot to mention a lot of stuff resists poisons and/or bleeds. So those specs aren't even useable in a lot of content.
This is probably the most important point. They said raids shouldn't have too many bosses immune to bleed or poisons, and that they will give rogues something else to do if that's the case, but what are we talking about exactly? Kicking adds?
So as a Rogue you'll probably have an assassination or subtlety spec, then a combat spec that always works and be expected to swap to.
This issue also affects arms warrior to a lesser extent. Deep Wound is a bleed, and they're pushing Rend with the talent making it proc Overpower.
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u/SlyFisch 5d ago
That's exactly why I'm considering some jank 22/8/21 build or something similar so I'm covered in those scenarios. Prob won't excel at anything but at least I'd have an option for every scenario
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u/TheSiegmeyerCatalyst 5d ago
I'll tell you what I told another guy about warrior: the devs aren't working on every class in simultaneous parallel. Some are getting worked first, I have faith others will come soon.
There's several weeks left of beta, and even after launch, there's several more weeks before anyone has to perform in max level content. I'd say expect updates the entire way.
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u/smashr1773 5d ago
They did say we get new abilities closer to max level. Well every class does. As a rogue I’m hoping we get something gooood.
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u/SlyFisch 5d ago
I'm hoping so too, a bit sad if we have to wait til lvl 40+ to get something new tho :(
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u/peaceornothing 6d ago
It feels like only paladins are in classic+ whilst the rest of classes are still living in classic.
And a couple classes are presently in a classic- state
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u/duckraul2 5d ago
Probably because paladins were the single most poorly implemented class in vanilla. Prot couldn't tank (miss me with any bullshit about barely being able to tank 5 mans), the prot tree existed to waste enough points in to get kings, or a meme niche pvp spec. Ret was just hot dog water, just auto attack and pray for a command proc. Holy was just wearing a dress and spamming 1.5 sec cast heals like whack-a-mole sniping health bars and managing pally power buff assignments. How do you even design a melee class and have zero yellow melee attack abilities?
They needed overhauls not just of spec specific talent trees, but of their baseline toolkit. It's not like they went very far, either, they only added one special attack baseline, and it's quite weak, but at least it's a button to press.
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u/thrillho145 5d ago
Druid and shaman were also terribly designed, especially enh and feral.
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u/duckraul2 5d ago
This is also true, no argument from me, paladin just takes the cake, even if it's not by a ton.
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u/EtherGorilla 5d ago
I’m okay with the state of paladins now, it just has to match the state of other characters. It’s weird af they nerfed things like balance Druid so hard when they were already a shit tier class for leveling. Maybe end game is mostly what they have in mind so I can cut them a little slack, but if making all specs playable during the leveling process is their goal, they’re failing hard. Paladin is now the gold standard and they got a buff in the last patch notes, Druid got a buff too, but they’re still only 75% as strong as classic. I really don’t understand the design philosophy.
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u/RagefireHype 5d ago
Idk Pally by 6 has its second rotational button while Mage doesn’t have theirs until 20 lmao (Ice Lance)
They kitted Pallys up
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u/duckraul2 5d ago
Unless there's something hidden later in a quest, that's also our first and last attack button. And maybe it's pedantic, but we don't actually have a rotation, there's no real order any of it needs to go that seriously affects DPS or spell interactions after crusader is judged. Seals don't drop after judge so you judge whenever off CD (since it has no GCD), and just use holy strike and consecrate whenever off CD and mana permitting.
Otherwise it's basically seal, then judge, holy strike, auto, repeat.
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u/birdy_the_scarecrow 5d ago
hows that any different to other melee classes tho?
shaman dont get an extra attack till 25(lowered from 40), and warriors dont get whirlwind till 36 and ms/bt till 40.
if anything, having judgement literally gives you more buttons than them lol
also hunters are running around with mortal strike crocodiles at level 20... which was previously an ability only warriors had after investing points to the arms capstone... what the?
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u/Graciak3 5d ago
That's honestly a bit crazy to me because, as a Paladin player that has enjoyed the class in a few different iteration of the game, pretty much nothing about Forever Paladin seems particularly appealing. I'm not sure why people think Paladins got it particularly good.
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u/Blobsobb 5d ago
All 3 specs capstones look like ass and the prot tree is REALLY rough. So is warriors prot tree to be fair, id say they dont seem to have tanks ironed out but bears seem insane so here we are.
But people screaming paladins are the pet class this go around are wild. IMO warlocks are the ones who made out like bandits.
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u/Graciak3 5d ago
Yeah, Warlock seems by far the best designed class in Forever, so much of their talents make sense and feel good, they got bane/curse separation (Paladins don't have hands/Blessings), pets are better, all 3 spec fit their intended fantasy better...
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u/Curmudge_Unit 5d ago
Bears have the same rage issues as warriors
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u/Blobsobb 5d ago
Bears and Warriors have high rage gen from avoidance. Prot Warrior is the one warrior flavor that wont have huge rage issues amusingly.
The issue with warriors is deep prot once again bizarrely sucks with it being nearly all threat talents so why not just go deep fury instead?
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u/Netfinesse 6d ago
Fix warriors and give them back their playstyle. Take their damage and make it in line with the rest, but give them their playstyle back.
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u/Zaseishinrui 5d ago
This is exactly what I've been saying word for word. And I haven't been too worried because I believe this is something they'll obviously fix by release. Especially with the noise everyone makes. Nerf my damage fine. But I like the way classic warrior feels to play and its why I've been warrior on every release since 2019
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u/Jarom2 5d ago
I’m sure warriors will be buffed. The part that makes me sad is that I don’t think they’re going to back off of rage normalization, which makes the class not nearly as much fun to play.
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u/Mind-Game 5d ago
Yeah, the current changes are both 1) Way less rage and 2) Your rage is normalized so item upgrades and crits don't make you feel stronger like they used to.
I'm sure they'll fix 1, but I doubt they'll fix 2. Which means warrior will never really feel the same
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u/Zaseishinrui 5d ago
what a shame, ive been maining classic since 2019, been playing retail since 2006, and i just love warrior and cant get enough, maybe killing the class will make me play paladin main now. idk. i will probably still play warrior cuz i just keep taking it in the ass from blizz
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u/jbourdea 6d ago
If by playstyle you mean rage generates unevenly but you still have enough rage to press buttons then I agree.
Reverting normalization isn't the answer.
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u/Thorn220 5d ago
As someone who played classic have to agree, would not complain if they did but just remember spamming everything and rare not having the rage for it.
I get it we can’t go back to that just hope it does not stay like this, feels like we have no room for anything unexpected since we do not have the rage to react.
Hard to explain but feels like a caster always being at the bottom threshold of mana.
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u/jbourdea 5d ago
It's more like an energy bar where the ticks are based on your weapon speed.
Except it starts empty.
And generates slower.
And sometimes your ticks miss.
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u/Mister_Yi 6d ago
You either get rage normalization or scheduled nerfs every new raid tier with a flat damage profile that feels as bad, if not worse, than normalized rage gen.
They had the same problem in sod and already tried the "uncapped rage but adjusted damage" route. The result was that most tiers they had infinite rage but all their buttons felt bad to press with no satisfying impact/payoff because they had to balance out the rage gen with reduced damage.
You essentially have to choose between less rage + harder hits or more rage + softer hits.
That's not to say the current state of rage gen is fine, obviously they can still improve it, but removing normalization has future implications no one will like.
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u/DrearyYew 6d ago
Most people aren't arguing against normalization, just that it seems it was hastily implemented with zero thought to the rest of the kit. Just look at the massive overhaul warriors got when normalization was first introduced in Cata
If done correctly, normalization is great at addressing the problems that Warrior has outside of raid content, and also preventing scaling from eventually getting too out of hand. Though with a more horizontal approach, I'm not sure this would be an issue, I would still prefer the flow of the class to be more or less the same in and out of raid
Problem is, it hasn't been done even remotely close to correctly
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u/fingoloid_troglodyte 5d ago
Yup, 16 year Warrior main here. Normalization is fine, MoP Fury is THE most fun spec I've ever played. The problem is that they just did absolutely nothing to compensate for it.
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u/Mjolnoggy 5d ago
>The result was that most tiers they had infinite rage but all their buttons felt bad to press with no satisfying impact/payoff because they had to balance out the rage gen with reduced damage.
Strange how they managed to fuck it up when it's basically exactly how it works in TBC and WotLK, and shit felt very good to press there.
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u/Impressive_Rub_8009 5d ago
They tried in sod?
Mate they gave the class with a stupid amount of stackable damage buffs a big damage buff rune in phase 1.
If that's them trying then we might as well give up on balance completely.
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u/Mindstop 5d ago
Please god. Balance buffs or leveling help.
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u/Nutzori 5d ago
I mean wrath damage just went up by 50% in the last build
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u/Mjolnoggy 5d ago
Up 50% from the nerfed state though. At 60 this means it went from 81% less damage than Classic to 72% less damage.
It's better, but man.. still requires like 50 - 60 spellpower at 20 to break even with Classic.
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u/dairymoose 5d ago
Despite having all spellpower gear I ended up leveling in bear form because it was better even with 0 strength
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u/jermikemike 5d ago
That's not out of the ordinary for any class. Rogues generally level as combat much faster than or assassination, even if their intention is to play sub or assassination at later levels. Warriors go arms, even when the end goal is fury. Priests usually go with a disc wand build until they get shadowform.
There are talent builds that are better for levelling for EVERY class. That's just the way it is.
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u/Weary-Tap-1192 5d ago
Yup. Play the class not the spec. I'm more interested in seeing how balance/ele play at 40+ with their capstones.
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u/Raptor_Jetpack 5d ago
can't wait for them to ignore every question people actually WANT to be answered and just waffle on about some minor fluff point like always
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u/Zuby_Hype_Train 5d ago
It’s honestly amazing how many people don’t seem to understand why Paladin got so many changes when the class was basically unplayable garbage in Vanilla/Classic.
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u/thevvitchhazel 5d ago
Really hoping for some warrior tweaks. I'm not a long term classic player, but warrior was my og class back in the day. I levelled both war and pal to 20 in beta and warrior feels awful compared to paladin. It's not about output or downtime etc. It's the rage issue plus how terrible heroic strike feels as an ability. I'd like it to be changed to be instant and work similarly to the new holy strike paladins have. If that isn't possible then to consider giving slam or something earlier and buffing it.
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u/Aeils 5d ago
Heroic strike classic is the beaut tho, especially if you understand heroic strike que.
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u/red_admin_h8r 5d ago
Doesn’t matter when you literally won’t be able to cast it when all your capped 300 some RPM is spent on BT and maybe every other whirlwind, let alone any debuffs if you don’t have a prot war tanking
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u/BioDefault 5d ago
Revert the priest fortitude buff to not give the additional HP immediately when increasing their max health.
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u/ibushi_art 5d ago
Hope they address warrior rage gen. While normalisation is generally good for the game, there needs to be some way for us to get enough rage to press our buttons. Currently it just feels bad. How does reck have such a long cd while LoH gets reduced cd. Shield wall cam ve talented down to 4 mins! Id be ok with getting even a nerfed version of reck on a lesser cd.
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u/tacticalmallet 6d ago edited 5d ago
If they are reading this, rather than worrying about numbers / buffs, can we have info on design ideas around
- shaman tanks
- hybrid classes suffering from not being able to use half their spells due to itemization improvements.
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u/Rare_Ad_3871 5d ago
Let’s worry about stuff like shaman tanks once we get all the baseline specs / classes dialed in.
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u/tacticalmallet 5d ago
I'd suggest it would be better to worry about them before getting the talent tree finished, else we gonna have a revamped tree pretty quick!
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u/Dessamba_Redux 5d ago
Fuck that we gotta figure out so much baseline shit first 2/3 of the specs are full doom and its only getting worse (week 1 giga nerfs btw)
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u/hesmir_4 6d ago
I hope they move feral cat to a plate spinning gameplay style similar but different to WoTLK. Having to prioritize your damage modifiers but still move around fights and pop out for a battle rez or swap to bear to off tank some ads real quick was my favorite way to play.
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u/MoskiNX 6d ago
Hope they address those charts that were floating around on this sub this week.
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u/Weaslelord 5d ago
While there's certainly outliers that need to be addressed (wrath already was), one thing that chart doesn't really take into account is the new tools classes have gotten. Shaman being a prime example with Lava Burst, Fire Nova, and elemental Overload.
That isn't to say there won't still need to be tuning, because there certainly will be. Especially since Enhance/Feral/Ret in a bit of a whack situation. I don't think the Int --> SP talent will be enough.
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u/HandholdingFetishist 5d ago
Patch notes say lava burst was tuned to do 10% more damage than lightning bolt at the level it was learned. Unless the spell massively improves as ranks increase, I don't think that'll be that great. Elemental overload is a 5% increase I believe?
Int->SP is definitely not going to be enough, yea. Especially for Shaman.
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u/RTheCon 5d ago
But.. the math is simple. We know the talents, we know the int SP talent. Did you know that retribution paladin has 100% of int to SP? Shaman has 30%.
Also, elemental isn’t getting that talent anyway. It’s not like other casters don’t have a talent tree. Why do people keeping making this argument? A talent tree isn’t going to give 700% increased damage to spells, if it did, it would be obvious.
Fire nova doesn’t scale, it has 15% coefficient. Lava burst is worse than incinerate and has a 10 second cooldown to boot, same as flame shock. Elemental overload is only 10% and does half damage when it procs… doesn’t work with lava burst.
The chart is a comparison of other class spells against eachother. It has nothing to do with them being nerfed at endgame. Shamans was clearly messed up in this “tuning” and no combination of talents or gear explains any of it.
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u/Raught19 5d ago
I really hope they explain the changes to Shadow Priest and their lack of raid utility
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u/Recktion 5d ago
They did it for most classes. Its not specific to spriest, its a game design decision. Most raid debuffs have become personal debuffs/buffs now. They clearly are leaning into bring the player not the class.
Except for shamans for some reason. Where you will cry as a melee if you dont have a shaman in your party.
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u/Mind-Game 5d ago
They clearly are leaning into bring the player not the class.
This can backfire though, because playing the less sweaty roles like shadow priest was great for the more casual players in the guild that wanted to raid but didn't want to super try hard. If you're bringing a shadow priest mostly for the debuff for your warlocks, they bring something to the raid even if their DPS isn't totally optimized.
Now there's really no role in the raid for someone who's not as try hard as the rest of the team.
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u/Curmudge_Unit 5d ago
Spriest has less utility than any class I can think of. I don't know why you'd bring them other than damage.
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u/ScreamHawk 5d ago
Mana battery/vampiric touch off heals is why I play Spriest.
I loved the utility in SoD
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u/Graciak3 5d ago
Pretty much no spec besides Moonkin and Feral have any spec specific raid utility. (I think disc still has PI too ? But that's fairly minor). This isn't exclusive to shadowpriest, who ironically still have VE.
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u/Curmudge_Unit 5d ago
Why does it matter if it's spec specific? You think health stones, soul stones, banish and curses aren't raid utility?
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u/jcr4990 5d ago
I hope everyone keeps talking about how supposedly OP paladins are and the class I'm leaning towards maining gets to fly under the radar. It's actually like... A lot more op than paladin lol. Idk why people are so hung up on pal but keep it up. Like the guy speeding in front of you to minesweep the cops shooting radar 🤣
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u/Fading_Hours_ 5d ago
I’m playing paladin regardless. I hope it is nerfed still so I can feel special.
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u/FreeSpeechIsDeadge 5d ago
People will play pally whether they’re the best or the worst class in the game.
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u/Apollo9975 5d ago
Paladin has a really good leveling experience early on, so people assume that means they’re overpowered in group content.
You do feel pretty godly leveling Paladin. You can save people who bit off more than they could chew, as you’re just slaughtering mobs at a decent pace. The class is very safe to level due to armor, self-healing, and emergency cooldowns.
I fell in love with the class when I started playing in 2019 Classic, and it doesn’t feel that different to level. Holy Strike sped up time to kill, but that’s mostly it.
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u/Serethe 5d ago
I would really just like to ask about the loss of the rhythm game style hunters used to have, needing to fit spells between autos. Now the autos just keep going, even whole casting aimed shot. It was always the think I liked most about Classic Hunter.
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u/Curmudge_Unit 5d ago
I feel like they hate this kind of gameplay. Totem twisting and powershifting got stomped down too.
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u/Serethe 5d ago
It's weird though, to be the Hunter swing timer things never felt janky. It felt pretty intuitive. And it makes auto shots feel more important and chunky. You just time your spells so you don't interrupt the auto.
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u/TheClassicAndyDev 5d ago
Oh boy can't wait to see how they excuse the heinously fucked spell value changes....
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u/Tiny_Tabaxi 5d ago
I feel like they're in a tuning phase because they want to add spell power to gear at a lower level, but haven't found a place that feels good yet
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u/embGOD 5d ago
Hopefully we will hear the devs this time instead of a streamer talking 90% of the time.
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u/cakeandcookieeater 5d ago
Aggrend loves streamers and clout. Expect more of that. Most of the input they read is from the private content creator discord.
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u/discus_notathrowaway 5d ago
I am extremely concerned about caster leveling. I am a long time pserver player, warlock, with a server first 60 lock on a major private server, server first mage in original Classic--w/e just I have experience leveling.
Warlock out of the gate level 1 is literally nerfed 50%. The Imp does half damage (why? Who expects a level 1 to have spell power?), Immolate does 5 less damage--out of the gate. The Imp also has no mana regen basically--in Classic at low levels, it has a full mana bar in 2 ticks of 5-second-rule. Now it takes like 20 seconds and is permanently oom. You literally HAVE to immediately get the green wand and you just use that non stop cause casting the actual spells is so weak.
I am MOST fearful that, because the level cap is going to be raised after people got to no life level 20 for 2 weeks and farm 100+ spell power, this issue is not going to be noticed as strongly. Looking ahead to 20-30 bracket upgrades, Corruption is going from 222->132, Agony from 324->168, and Immolate from 101+165->63+95. These are absurd nerfs. On actual fresh where you can't no-life for a week to get level 20 BiS, leveling is going to get absurdly difficult, and it's ONLY GOING to get harder 30-60. Warlocks are going to be nearly unplayable if this makes it to live.
I have absolutely no idea how one of the first things they fix is to make the strongest sub-20 class Paladins even stronger before noticing things like this. Extremely concerning. Along with the druid changes and the mage arcane missile change, I am very concerned that they are focusing way too much on streamer feedback and without a warlock content creator really, warlocks are just going to be completely overlooked.
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u/RagefireHype 5d ago
Wait, you’re actually mad that Missiles does what every channeled spell does? That was 100% a bug that you can LOS after the channel.. it’s how it always works lol
Being mad at Mage is wild when most the notable Mage mains aren’t even going to main Mage in Forever. Your streamer boi himself Xaryu has considered not maining Mage.
The Mage fire buffs from yesterday dont even help at all either
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u/Escolyte 5d ago
The two classes I have leveled are lock and druid.
You are out of your mind if you think the wrath buffs were undeserved, I doubt it puts them on par with the lock easy mode, let alone ahead.
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u/Cyronis 5d ago
I’m keen to roll warrior or rogue. Right now it seems a bit like these two are the neglected step child in the attic. I hope they get a bit of love.
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u/untaggedpacket 5d ago
I think getting cat at 20 is too long considering how miserable it is to level druid 10-20
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u/IronProdigyOfficial 5d ago
PLEASE. Quite a few are heavily underperforming and need a second look over.
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u/Aureliusmind 5d ago
I hope they address "Forever is for Classic players" while giving us retail warrior.
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u/noobfalcon 5d ago
It is a million times worse than retail warrior.
Retail warrior has one spender, Rampage, the rest of the kit is about building Rage to maintain your Enrage buff (via Rampage and some other stuff)
Almost all your other abilities GIVE you rage including stuff like Execute.
I much prefer vanilla warrior over retail, but Forever warrior is dogshit even in comparison to retail.
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u/Hisako1337 6d ago
Explain why elemental shaman, arms warrior and other specs got mathematically balanced but lost their soul and unique feel. Explain why resto shaman got degraded into holy paladin alike with chainheal as the only mechanical difference but still 1 button spamming.
The whole class balance so far is done like an excel sheet. Achieve endgame parity in numbers, but kill the essence of specs alongside way.
Even just a single weapon imbue relevant for 2 of the 3 shaman specs would have added a lot of unique flavor, not hard to balance, but now? Enhancer is the windfury2Hbonk lovechild for YouTube/tiktok, the others are „viable“ but a shadow of what they ought to feel like.
Oh and yes, gutting warriors like that without giving AND compensation makes Reallife people enraged. Arms guys also want a home in forever, but feel warrior. Even if at the bottom of dps meters.
Plus I’d like to know why he straight up LIED at blizzconn with keeping the classic parts as opposed to retail, about working with and for the community, and even before launch warrior as the polarizing class got degraded into a walking energy bar with a swingtimer. That’s deception or incompetence, I’d like to know which one.
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u/whimski 6d ago
Ele shaman isn't mathmatically balanced. It's a good 15% below SPriest and Moonkin while spending over TWICE the mana.
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u/Curmudge_Unit 5d ago
Would you give the spriest your totems for 15% damage? They have zero utility.
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u/SkipX 5d ago
Ok calm down brother. It's a beta and we are at lvl 20. Idk what you expect, the changes so far seem fine, let them balance a bit.
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u/Michelangelo-489 5d ago
Keep 2H Slam as TBC please. Timing Slam is enjoyable. Scale Rend with weapon damage if you still want Bleed build works.
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u/mechatui 5d ago
Loving the beta, would like to hear more on balance Druid if you are done with it or will change anything.
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u/Flat-Two-789 5d ago
we are eating boys. haven't had this amount of community engagement in a long time
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u/Branimau5 5d ago
Nice, I want to hear about their plans to re work capstones for rogue/dungeon interactions with immune mobs/bosses to poison and bleed if that's the direction they are going. Will be sad to just go combat lol...
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u/jeffmiller16 5d ago
If they could address the extra roles from sod for classes that eould be nice, i really wanted my warlock tank… i wish they would tell us if there is hope or not
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u/Kojootti 4d ago
Seeing how they’ve gutted shamans outside maybe restos, I dont have high hopes and Ive already decided not to come back for wowf.
If they however actually make caster and melee spec for shamans viable, I’d be down to return for wowf. Though I am skeptical. One thing they did do good on elementals was to change how lava burst works on flame shocked targets. (Increased damage instead of 100% crit)
Although I dont see how they’d do that. Elemental talents look boring and very nerfed. Like ”caster windury” is at 9%? Thats a joke, right? It either needs to scale (not very classic-like) or be flat out 20-25% chance for proc.
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u/PokemonThanos 6d ago
58 minutes on paladins, 2 minutes for an ad break.