Satan wasn't a god hater in the original lore. He was a heavenly prosecutor who tested humanity. God had a court system in heaven, and Satan sat at the prosecutor's table. Satan wasn't some independent evil entity. He was just a guy doing his job.
But then some human named Jesus came along, borrowed mythos and writings from his culture to start his own cult. He ended up ret-conning some stuff, mostly because the Hellenistic belief systems at the time, so that satan got a new occupation and identity.
Could be all that happened. But I'm more talking about right now in the "timeline". This is where we are today, and what drives things, based on modern church teachings.
And yeah, I probably should have said that it all might be taken with a grain of salt. Nobody *knows* anything. It's *all* theory.
Personally, I don't have an idea of what Lucifer did when he was on the "good" side. I've heard General of His armies, too. (But why did He need armies!?)
One of the things that most interests me is the *why*. Assuming that Lucifer was one thing, and he's now the other thing, without any kind of Hellenistic changes, right? What could push Lucifer over that edge, to turn against God, and to be cast out of Heaven with his host of angels? What influence would cause that, could cause that?
Theology isn’t theory. It’s theology. The study of made-up stories. You could technically produce a theory based on theology, but scripture is never evidence, it’s always the claim.
Chat get said it better than me', Saying the "proof of the Bible is in the Bible" relies on a concept called circular reasoning or internal consistency, combined with a theological worldview.
Materialism suffers from the same circular logic as well. When people say existence came as a result of physical process, how can that be when physical things, but their very definition, already exist?
The way you pose that questions it's as if there are two options, belive the Bible or believe materialism. I think it's foolish as a human to think you know with certainty how the universe came to be and if there is an afterlife. Religion serves a purpose in some people's lives, others are completely fine with the unsolvable mysteries of life.
Not true, a majority of Jews believed he WAS the Messiah. The Sanhedrin didn’t want to lose their power, thus had him killed…and then their temple was destroyed, and thus started Rabbinic Talmudic Judaism, which is where we are at today.
Do you have a source for that claim? I can't find anything. I don't doubt there were some groups of Jews that believed Jesus was the Messiah, but I have a hard time believing it was the majority opinion. Especially because Jesus wasn't the only person claiming to be messiah
The Bible has a lot of shared old testament books between Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. The old testament prophecy claims a Messiah will come along to save humanity. For Christians, this is Jesus. For Islam, this is Mohammed. For Judaism, they think the Messiah hasn't come yet.
not at all, most of what Jesus said, could be found in the old testament. The more you read the old testament, it becomes surprisingly similar to a lot of the the things Jesus later went around preaching.
Satan was often said to be a Cherubim, the sect of angels dedicated to guarding the throne of God. Essentially God's right hand guys. Satan thought himself to be better than God, and so he rebelled against him, and he was cast to hell, and then began tempting humanity with sin on earth
I think that’s where free will comes into play. If you are spared from the option of sin, are you really free? Isn’t that’s just the illusion of choice?
And frankly he built some people way more likely to disappoint him then others, or put them in situations that would likely cause them to disappoint him. Super cool God!
Ok, why can't they have free will without the risk of eternal damnation? If God is all powerful, he could just remove the consequence in eternity. Either God is cool with it because sinners deserve it or he isn't all powerful.
There’s a prophecy in the Bible that says god throws satan into eternal lake of fire or something one day. Then comes judgment day when it’s all reset. I can’t remember
Okay but if God is omnipotent. Why doesn't he just destroy satan? Seems a bit weird to let just evil room around like thats. Especially if he infinity loves us. Wouldnt he want to prevent us getting hurt?
Even the serpent he managed to fuck up. Seriously.. Supposedly the serpent was cursed to slither on the ground(eat dust) for all eternity.. yet we have jumping snakes, tree snakes, gliding snakes.
Sounds like that curse didn't hold very well did it?
He tempted Jesus, who is God, so he tempted man and God. Which hopefully allows you to think about it more. But also, another point, if you commit a crime in any modern 1st world country, if your defense was that some third party tempted you to do, it doesn't absolve you of doing that crime.
If the state was able to remove all desire to commit crime at will, and the only source of crime was some dude running around tempting people who they just allowed to do that, then I would think it a very reasonable defense, and I would consider any state that disagreed to be corrupt and immoral.
No, I think most 1st world states in the real world are incredibly moral by biblical standards. Hypothetically, if they acted more like God, they would become corrupt and immoral.
My theory is that the mechanism by which God offers humans free will also introduces chaos into what would ostensibly be an otherwise orderly world. The place where free will enters is also a place where evil can enter.
As a result God cannot wholly remove evil without also negating the chaos that makes free will possible. We cannot be both free and controlled at the same time.
Thus, most of the work of limiting evil in the world is on us. We must use our ability to choose to choose good.
(I’m not religious, but I enjoy theology and philosophy and the like.)
So God is not all powerful then. I like this lore much better than what is proposed. There are tradeoffs for everything. If I believe in religion this would hit way better for me. Like God is a powerful entity but the laws of the universe still exist.
"God," says Epicurus, "either wants to remove evils, but cannot; or he can, but does not want to; or he does not want to and cannot; or he wants to and can. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent; which is inadmissible in God. If he can, but does not want to, he is envious; which is also alien to God. If he does not want to and cannot, then he is envious and impotent; and this too cannot be attributed to God. If he wants to and can, which alone is proper to God, then where do evils come from? Or why does he not remove them?
Because God is the original domestic abuser toxic partner family annihilator. Just worship him unconditionally and he won’t get mad at you. Until he does.
abusers don't kill their victims though, so bad analogy. God is slow to anger, God didn't do anything or lay a finger to any nations like Sodom and Gomorrah or the neighboring kingdoms for hundreds of years. He left them alone for generations as they grew a culture of child sacrifices, rape, etc., until God had enough and wiped them out. Hardly abuser behavior at all, in fact He is the destroyer of abusers.
an abuser abusees their victims for a long time, and then may kill them. God leaves kingdoms alone for hundreds of years, giving them a chance to change, and when they don't, wipes them out. That is not abuser behavior. It's just a bad analogy.
Imagine being created for the sole purpose of being raped and killed so that your suffering exists as justifications for the death of your rapist/murderer.
Imagine exalting someone who does this.
Suggesting that a flawless deity has anger is paradoxical anyhow, but consistency was never religion's strong suit.
there is a life after death, there is resurrection, so "sole purpose" is a gross assumption on your part.
So yes we exalt someone who has power over death. In atheism, people are born into suffering with no justification and you exalt yourself over that fact, talk about calling the kettle black.
>Suggesting that a flawless deity has anger is paradoxical anyhow, but consistency was never religion's strong suit.
anger is only a flaw for man. The point of the bible isn't that actions in themselves are evil or good, but that man wrongfully tries to become like God in ways that are wrong. It's actually pretty consistent. Our first sin wasn't that we did bad actions, it was that we tried to be like God in a self exalting way.
It is a logical implication based on the assumption that God exists according to Abrahamic theology.
"There is life after death" is an assumption.
Atheism has no exaltation of any entity. Atheism is the default. No one is born with irrational beliefs. Irrational beliefs are manufactured. This is quintessential strawman's fallacy.
You just said God is slow to anger in your previous comment. This implies a flawed god. You have sinned. Go repent.
>It is a logical implication based on the assumption that God exists according to Abrahamic theology.
>"There is life after death" is an assumption.
Not according to the Bible, Jesus promised resurrection. Even the Pharisees believed in resurrection, while the Sadducees didn't. So even the Jews, sans Jesus, were split on the idea.
>Atheism has no exaltation of any entity
you exalt yourself, you worship your own intelligence, your personality, your desires, dreams, goals, etc. If you are going to sit there and lie to me then there really isn't a point to this conversation.
>You just said God is slow to anger in your previous comment. This implies a flawed god. You have sinned. Go repent.
how? what flaw? It doesn't imply that at all. Anger in itself is not a sin in the bible. You are saying God is flawed.
If you can't see how "there is life after death" is an assumption, you lack the rationality to have a meaningful discussion. If you can't see how simply saying "the Bible says so" is insufficient evidence, then there's no further discussion to be had.
I'm not attack you as a person, but I am pointing out flaws in your belief. Your response with an ad hominem attack on my character should highlight the nature of your belief. You have no evidence regarding my character; only beliefs about it that help you feel more secure in your own positions. Again, think about this: isolated tribes with no contact to the outside world, do not believe in Abrahamic gods. It requires someone to "spread the gospel." This is the same with all religions. Ergo, atheism is the default. People are born atheists, until someone incepts the idea of religion.
Finally, a perfect god makes no mistakes. Anger is a response when something does not happen the way you desire something to happen. A perfect god's will is absolute; everything happens the way god intends it to happen. If that is the case, anger could never happen. If you suggest that a god can anger, then god's will is not absolute. It's incredibly straightforward.
Well, the “Bible said so” part is literally what you were criticizing in the first place. So you can’t really have it both ways. You can’t criticize something in the Bible based on an out-of-context reading, and then, when the actual context is brought up, respond with “nuh uh, none of that is real.” If the Bible is going to be the basis of the criticism, then the context of what the Bible actually says has to matter too. So you may think you are pointing out flaws in my belief, but fail to actually do it correctly.
>Anger is a response when something does not happen the way you desire something to happen
Why does God's anger entail a change in God's will rather than a change in God's relation to the object of an unchanging will?
Yup all the terrible people like Einstein, Spinoza, Plato, Darwin, Turing, Hawking, Lennon and many many more. They’re all in hell.
Conquerors and mass murderers like Constantine, Charlemagne, Leopold, Slaveowners like John Newton, and even Jeffrey Dahmer would all be in heaven though.
That's true. Hell is explained in the Catechism, not the Bible. From §1033, "To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called 'hell.'"
Satan doesn't despise God, Satan wanted to be elevated to the same level as a God. He wanted all the glory of being God.
If we go by first testament, God does not like people. He's picky and has his favorite pets. second testament is more on a human level, we need people growing food to stay alive so be nice to each other and stop putting peoples heads on pikes sort of thing.
If he wants to hurt god, Satan closes down hell and leaves humanity alone. This act nullifies free will and just shuts down the whole Christian equation. When Satan no longer plays along, and leaves humanity alone, God doesn't need to save anyone, Jesus died for nothing, and the whole absurdity comes to a halt.
If God exists, there is no free will. You can't have an omnipotent and omniscient God and also have beings that have free will. Those two ideas don't mix.
Idk why god has to be a dick about it, just leave people who don’t care about it alone. There’s no point in torturing people unless you’re inherently evil and vindictive.
Thats one version. The idea that gods right hand immortal angel who knew god best, and his power, would start a war he knew he could never win, strikes me as a little hard to believe.
Satan sounds like me. I absolutely loathe God too, or at least the idea of a god that says he loves us but puts us in the hell we know as life. If you love someone, you don’t hurt them.
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u/seph187 5h ago
Satan despises God. He hates Him, and he wants to harm Him in any way he can but it turns out God is God, and invincible and eternal and omnipotent.
Man has free will. Man can choose to follow God, or to eschew Him.
God loves all His little humans, each with an infinite portion of His infinite heart. He wants us all to come home to Him.
This is where Satan found the way to hurt God, in theory.
In claiming our souls, Satan denies God what He wants.
Is there torture in hell? No, as u/onioning mentioned, hell is defined in the theology as the absence of God. But, for Satan, that's enough.
Hope that helps.