Dungeon XP Nerfs Created a Toxic Meta

[u/redlow0992]

Since dungeon monsters do not give any experience, as a new player, getting into dungeons with more veteran players who try to skip half the dungeon feels really bad. And, vice-versa, veterans taking in newbies who don't know how to jump around feels frustrating. I think Blizzard created a mess with nerfing dungeon exp so much and now the new player experience is horrible for dungeons.

[u/ahumblepeach]

My complaint with the change is that, for healers and tanks, group play is their fantasy. If I want to level as a healer, I don't want to be spending all of my time in the world casting my two underwhelming DPS abilities while rarely getting to use all my healing buttons. I want to be standing in the back and helping my party take on more than one person can handle. Sure, I could group up to do quests (and I have been!), but that really is not the same thing. I sort of have a hard time putting it into words, but I feel like tanks and healers not getting to do as much dungeon running as they want takes away a part of the fun of leveling them. I might as well just reroll as a DPS spec if I'm going to be forced into the open world for most of my 1-60 journey. And with that in mind, I worry that this change is discouraging people from leveling healers and tanks.

[u/holypalaswe → u/ahumblepeach]

DPS players cannot fathom that as healers, we don't want to be doing damage, we want to be healing people.

You are entirely correct with your comment, but you still have players replying telling you to just spec DPS, or just equip a second gearset lol.

The game is way too centered around doing damage, with tanking and healing being an afterthought which the dungeon change is a great example of.

[u/Visual-Scallion1535 → u/holypalaswe]

No the leveling experience just requires you to be somewhat self sufficient since it is mostly not group play, unless you coordinate with friends

That said you unlock dual speccing at 40 in forever

[u/komodo_lurker → u/ahumblepeach]

Hard agree here. Over the years I have several times leveled tank alts by only running dungeons and their pre quests. I love knowing each instance well and lead well. And doing it with full rested only really is fun and fast. Give me this option in Forever. Especially with all the new dungeons.

[u/Meaty_owl_legs → u/ahumblepeach]

They're are 100% actually discouraging people from leveling as tank or healer specs as group play is really focused on dungeons and not questing around as a 2-5 man group. There is absolutely going to be a real tank and healer shortage because people are going to be discouraged from leveling as those specs.

Not to say you can't level as those specs just fine, or you can't fill those roles without investing into those spec trees. But, there is going to be a lack of players willing to fill those roles because of the lack of incentive of tanking/healing when running dungeons more than once is so nerfed.

[u/Accomplished-Tear-77 → u/Meaty_owl_legs]

You can tank and heal all the content easily with dps talents + spare gear atleast till 50

[u/ahumblepeach → u/Accomplished-Tear-77]

Why are tanking and healing talents available at level ten, then? Should we not be testing them during the beta test?

Several people have suggested the same thing but several tank and healer mains have replied saying "We don't want to do that."

We enjoy the support roles, and it feels crappy to tell us to build around DPS instead.

[u/Mother_Drenger → u/ahumblepeach]

I think that’s a fair point, we aren’t getting a lot of testing for tanking and healing specs.

As an aside, I overall agree dungeon XP needs to be fixed.

I think the buy-in for being tank or healing spec before endgame should simply be less mental overhead and faster dungeon run. Tanks should feel free to jump into the thick of it, healers should feel good that a single cast does most of the work.

I’m mostly just don’t want the result to be to limit hybrids from dipping into other roles if they’re a DPS spec. That’s a core part about classic design philosophy, one was expected to consider their whole kit while leveling

[u/Visual-Scallion1535 → u/Accomplished-Tear-77]

And you get dual spec at 40 now anyways

[u/Trzlog → u/ahumblepeach]

This is a huge deal, honestly. I absolutely hate quest leveling as a healer spec, it's miserable. And my main specs are all healers. I simply have zero interest in DPS. It bores me to tears. I'd literally prefer playing any other game than being forced to DPS to level.

[u/FatedWinds → u/ahumblepeach]

Its classic you dont even get the fun talents till its nearly over. The tax is more on getting a decent two hander for warrior/paladin & increased ability training costs so your open world spec can function. The whole problem is try hards will be dicks regardless of whatever version your playing.

[u/Visual-Scallion1535 → u/ahumblepeach]

For most of your 1-60 journey you are able to dual spec

[u/Trzlog → u/Visual-Scallion1535]

Why should I have to play a spec I don't like instead of the spec that I do like? And how am I supposed to practice/learn healing as a newer player if I never get to play a healing spec? What is this nonsense?

[u/Visual-Scallion1535 → u/Trzlog]

Its nonsense to you that you arent constantly matched with a party of 5?

Its not that kind of game

[u/Thick_Woodpecker_438 → u/ahumblepeach]

There's always been way more dps than healers or tanks, you won't have difficulty finding groups, it just won't be the one of the fastest ways to level anymore.

[u/Morazma → u/Thick_Woodpecker_438]

It's not just not "one of the fastest ways to level", it's not viable to dungeon level anymore, at all. 

[u/Helivon → u/Morazma]

well it is to do them once... but yeah ive been having this argument since the announcement. People think the mega server will mean plenty of tanks, but the ratio is going to be far, far worse since why would anyone giga nerf themselves questing by playing a healer or tank. sure dual spec available later on, but its still going to be more of a shortage than usual.

I absolutely hate this change

[u/Thick_Woodpecker_438 → u/Morazma]

Sure it is, you still get XP, just not as much. Or by 'viable' do you mean just as fast as any other way of levelling?

[u/Morazma → u/Thick_Woodpecker_438]

By not viable I mean it will take more than twice as long as questing. That's being generous. It's more like 4-5 times as long. That's like 40-50 days to level 60 vs 8-10 for questing. 

[u/Dantels → u/Thick_Woodpecker_438]

Whixhbit should be for tanks and healers.

[u/Frankencow13 → u/Thick_Woodpecker_438]

Currently, if you do RFC at lvl 11 the quests will get you well over 13, the next run does not even get you one segment of a bar.

[u/AnIdealSociety → u/ahumblepeach]

This is some nonsense larp. Nobody levels as a healing spec you can’t quest with, it was stupid and continues to be stupid. You don’t need healing talents to heal dungeons. Get another set of gear with some +healing or +sp and train your spells. it really isn’t that hard to figure out

[u/ahumblepeach → u/AnIdealSociety]

Then why is the healing tree available at all when I'm leveling? With your logic, everyone should spec into DPS trees and I specifically don't want to do that. I don't find it fun to get bigger DPS numbers, I find it fun to get bigger healing numbers. I level several alts and have no problem questing on my Warlock, but I find it a lot less fun to quest on my Resto Druid. I don't want to play Balance or Feral. Why give me the option at all if the only solution is to spec into DPS and workaround that with healing gear?

Never said I can't quest as a healer. I said it's less fun.

[u/CopiousClassic → u/AnIdealSociety]

I did on my priest, lol.

Have you never heard of a warrior and pocket priest? It's a great leveling experience for the tank and healer, and all the DPS love it because they can pump.

I never actually ever heard anyone complain about people running dungeons in level appropriate parties in Classic and I want to know who thinks it needs to go.

[u/AnIdealSociety → u/CopiousClassic]

They are talking about not being able to level as a healer in response to dungeon xp nerfs, the obvious inference being they were healing instances from 15-60 and were specced into whatever healing tree the class had as they talk about not wanting to quest.

You don’t need to spec into your classes healing tree for dungeons, you never have had to do that in classic. You can heal just fine as feral with some caster gear on and then go quest in your feral gear. Or shadow, or ret, or another other non-healing spec

I am aware you can duo level, you still don’t need to be a healer for that. “I can’t quest because I’m a healer” doesn’t exist in game unless you impose that restriction on yourself or you make up stories on Reddit

[u/CopiousClassic → u/AnIdealSociety]

Well "I can't run multiple dungeons as a healer to level" didn't exist in the game either, until it did.

I know it seems silly to you that people like leveling in tank and heal spec but it is a thing people do and I still haven't heard someone explain why they need to be punished.

[u/DaleEBoy → u/AnIdealSociety]

I get that it doesn’t impact the build you can make. The problem is I actually enjoy healing in dungeons. It’s the best bit of the game, for me.

I don’t get the logic of basically discouraging people to actively play a major feature of your game.

[u/Other_Safe_4659 → u/AnIdealSociety]

People definitely do. I did my first playthrough. I also did for World First/Realm first leveling races.

I do think they penalized dungeon runs probably too much. They could've achieved pretty much the same thing with a daily reset on the same dungeon's xp, instead of nerfing it permanently across the board.