r/classicwow • u/redlow0992 • 4h ago
Forever Beta Feedback Dungeon XP Nerfs Created a Toxic Meta
Since dungeon monsters do not give any experience, as a new player, getting into dungeons with more veteran players who try to skip half the dungeon feels really bad. And, vice-versa, veterans taking in newbies who don't know how to jump around feels frustrating. I think Blizzard created a mess with nerfing dungeon exp so much and now the new player experience is horrible for dungeons.
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u/Afraid-Document-8597 4h ago
I think you are right and this is indeed an unintended consequence. Its gonna become all about skips and jumps and stealth tech. Where as before we pulled most the dungeon or didnt play as safe because we wanted the xp anyway
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u/The-Only-Razor 2h ago
My absolute fucking least favorite part of retail M+ is the stupid route planning trash. I just want to enter a dungeon and kill everything. Optimal pathing and efficiency maxing isn't fun when it involves doing everything you can to play the game as little as possible.
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u/Soulerous 2h ago
What you’re describing is the greater of two evils, I think. Would rather have some groups who spam dungeons than have most groups try to skip as much as possible.
Just make it so no one in the party gets XP for mobs who are grey to one of them. Boosting is gone, at least.
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u/MorteDeAngel 1h ago
IIRC this is already a thing on the Anniversary realms, and ngl it kinda sucked if someone levelled during the dungeon and suddenly you went from getting like 100-50xp per mob (or w/e it is) to like 5 because someone levelled from the mob xp. Considering that some dungeons have large level ranges that you want to be on the higher end of and some dungeon quests are quite hard to obtain for the level that is needed for the dungeon. If they changed that in Forever I'd be more aggregable with that solution though you could also make so that the acceptable level range is based on the highest level mob in the dungeon (max like +2 or +3) rather than "if its grey".
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u/587493 2h ago
Dude same I remember a few years ago I was giving retail a try and excited to run mythic+ only to find out what m+ runs actually ended up being
I left retail and never went back, even though I love challenging dungeons
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u/Creative_Magazine816 2h ago
raider.io also ruined M+
mythic plus was so good for legion until the community made it unfun
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u/ArcticAmoeba56 1h ago
This is it though. None of these problems are designed into the game. The people, the players, the community make them a reality.
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u/Rico_Rebelde 49m ago
Players will always optimize the fun out of a game if given the opportunity. Part of the developers job is to prevent that
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u/Winterough 1h ago
Same story. Entered my first retail dungeon after Legion and no word of a lie it was literally a race to finish and hand gliders(?) around. Made me quit right there.
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u/Rhinocacrocapig 2h ago
I really hate skipping trash packs, the amount of times I've been in a dungeon where we've spent more time skipping a pack than it would have taken to actually kill it is ridiculous, if someones time is that important to them that they have to min max every second, there are far better games for that
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u/raskeks 2h ago
TBH, It's not like in classic people are zoning into BRD to kill everything either.
Most of the time you do have a route and a goal in mind. Not every group will kill Rattlegore/Kirtonos/Vectus in Scholo or in Strath complete both live and undead or even kill all bosses including Skul and Ezra Grimm
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u/Bohya 2h ago
an unintended consequence
But not unforseen. It was obvious this would happen.
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u/Akilee 2h ago
I'm also not a very big fan of how much exp the dungeon quests are giving. I'm not playing beta, but it kinda looks like people will skip a ton of outdoor content by just doing dungeon quests. I think the powerful gear you can get from dungeons should be reward enough.
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u/krolltheknight4ever 1h ago
Mind you, levels 1-20 are quite easy to obtain without dungeons. My skelf hunter made it to 15 before leaving their starting zone
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u/ABDLTA 3h ago
They should have just done the "once per day" rule that HC currently has
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u/Nrgte 3h ago
No they shouldn't have done anything. It was never a problem.
The current solution has a myriad of issues.
- Like op mentioned, mobs that are not part of a quest get skipped. Every dungeon run will be a speedrun.
- There are certain quests that just don't drop enough for the whole group, meaning you either have to abandon it or go again. Cabinets in Gnomeregan or Twilight Talismans in BFD come to mind. This will feel terrible especially for longer dungoens.
- The friend or guildie has already done the dungeon and would like to help to complete the group. Well now it's a waste of time.
- People will just get the items they need and then abandon the group.
- People will just not run fringe dungeons with few quests anymore. Good luck finding an SFK group on Alliance. It's fine now in the beta because 20 is max level, but on launch people will not waste their time with this.
If they really really want to prevent boosting, the correct move is to just not give XP if a player is part of the group who's outside of the dungeons level bracket.
Besides, it's not like boosting in the open world is not a perfectly fine alternative.
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u/NostraDamnUs 2h ago
I think a SLIGHT nerf to dungeon xp from original values (~75% of base, 25% of base if someone is too far outside the bracket) and a corresponding larger nerf to dungeon quest XP would suffice. Make them a touch harder as you get into the later levels if you have to. Dungeons need to be worth doing, just not so much worth doing that you want to stand in SM for ~12 levels. I think people don't realize that efficient questing was already faster than dungeon spam; its just that the open world at launch made questing temporarily harder.
My biggest fear is that dungeons are actually the most social activity. It's hard to find people at the same stage of questing out in the open world, whereas its very easy to get a bunch of people around the same level. And if we add a daily lockout, it sucks that you have to reform tomorrow if you're at 9/10 of a quest item or something.
There's definitely a perfect balance they could achieve by making super-optimized groups learn the skips, let casual runs just clear without feeling bad, and not push everyone into leveling in dungeons and discouraging open-world stuff. All three are fun ways to play WoW.
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u/Sykotron 3h ago
The friend or guildie has already done the dungeon and would like to help to complete the group. Well now it's a waste of time.
I kind of understand where you're coming from, but I feel like this point drives home the problem with it. Spending time with friends is not a waste of time and needs to be the goal with some fun gameplay to share.
If I was just grouping up with complete randoms in the real world just to accomplish a very specific goal without getting to know them... then yeah, they're not gonna care about anything but that goal and the same applies to a game this large.
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u/llIllIlIllIIllIl 2h ago
I asked our main tank if he wanted to come tank a Vashj only skip-run in SSC last spot summ ready. He replied that he didn't need anything from SSC so he had no incentive to join.
...to help some guildies?
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u/Kixur413 2h ago
Damn, as a full bis prot paladin I love showing off my shiny golden ass. Whats the point of getting a decked out tank if youre not going to pull half a dungeon to impress the noobs and blame the healer when you die?
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u/sfsctc 2h ago
Ok how about a less clear example, maybe it’s someone in your guild that you don’t know as well asking for someone to come help with a dungeon you’ve already done. Blizzard should design the game in a way so that you are most likely to want to come and help (and potentially make a new friend). This is directly in line with their stated social pillar.
They don’t necessarily need to engineer this using XP, although I don’t hate the once a day normal XP rates idea. They could add other rewards like very rare appearances, leveling sets like the Druid snake one, etc.
It’s easy enough to say “just play with your friends” but I think the game is better when this is naturally encouraged by design
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u/Nrgte 2h ago
My wording wasn't very good, my apologies. It's not a waste of time in that sense, but it just won't feel as good for the helper (nor the one asking for help). People can justify helping more easily if they get a small reward. And more importantly, people won't feel guilty for asking.
Gameplay mechanics are supposed to reward social behavior. Blizzards implementation is doing the opposite is my point.
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u/EnthusiasmWest4481 3h ago
this like they nerfed mages blizzard slow to deal with boosting just tune down quest xp and revert xp from mobs
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u/Gassenger 2h ago
People think that if others are in dungeons that it makes the open world empty.
Like, this isn't a thing because of server population and layering. Especially with Forever. It wasn't in TBC Anniversary launch; most players were doing the dungeon rep grind and still the open world was absolutely chock full of people and still was even into P3 besides the relatively empty parts of maps.
People just see Blizzard make a change and rush to defend it. There are great changes they've made but this wasn't one of them. Attack boosting other ways than this.
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u/xBirdisword 2h ago
No, let me just run the dungeon instead of dictating how I play the game
Thanks
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u/Gassenger 2h ago
Like seriously man! I dont get why people are so ready to sacrifice other ways of playing and fun that don't effect them. Why do you want everyone funneled to one playstyle in an open world mmorpg?
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u/unprovoked33 2h ago
Exactly. I love spamming dungeons with my friends. How is that a bad thing that needed to be changed?
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u/Magisch_Cat 2h ago
I tell you what i'm not looking forward to lbrs candle skips becoming meta during leveling.
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u/Mixels 2h ago
The whole idea is dog poo.
Insufficient practice with your class while leveling since you only run each dungeon once
No friends on friends list since you never see the same people more than once (in part because of speed of leveling vis dungeon quests, in part because of layering)
It becomes next to impossible to do dungeons at appropriate levels after ~6 months because there are very few characters at lower levels since most older characters rocketed through leveling via dungeon quests
Toxicity from experienced players who want to speed run
Who could have guessed these things would happen? Well, that's the thing. Literally anyone.
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u/ikemayelixfay 2h ago
Yeah at first I was for the nerf, but after running dungeons in the beta I'm now convinced it's the wrong move.
Was in a group that kicked a tank because they pulled a few extra groups. He was kicked for, "wasting everyone's time" in a beta where the whole point is testing...
I liked the idea someone posted here a few days ago about a debuff that reduces the XP you get from a dungeon the more you run it in a day. That will at least curb the boosting spam that plagues anniversary right now.
Can't count on today's gamers to not optimize the fun out of everything so you have to shift accordingly. I see where they were coming from with the nerf, but it causes a lot more problems than it solves.
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u/imissjudy 2h ago
lets kick the tank and spend 15 minutes to find a new one instead of a few extra pulls
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u/Straamannen 29m ago
That's the thing though. Half the time dungeon skipping doesn't even save time.
I've had groups try to jump the gorge in Slave Pens for FIVE MINUTES while just clearing the mob pack takes all of 30 seconds.
Dungeon skipping only feels good, it does nothing for your day. It's the same thing as speeding and weaving. You're not actually saving time.
And what's worse, the time "saved" assuming we actually do is for WHAT exactly? So we can play the game more? The game we're playing?
And that's not even getting into all the time lost to people dying and groups wiping because of impatient fucks. All in all I'm fairly certain skipping has wasted more of my time than it has ever saved.
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u/basicstyrene 1h ago
Sorry that is just so hilarious. Wasting everyone's time... in a test version of a video game where the point is to enjoy the world and have fun.
I guess the thing to do is find a guild of people wanting to actually play the game and do dungeons with them
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u/nimeral 2h ago
Also I'd imagine the people are lootwhoring much more knowing they'll never run this dungeon again
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u/Burdman06 2h ago
This is my concern going into launch. I was planning to do them more than once if a piece of gear was worth it. Or if its just...ya know...fun. but with the skips and possible loot drama, I have worries
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u/Nessarra 1h ago
imagine the increased drama on the server discords over this... even if you're not a discord enjoyer, if you want to find a guild discord is the way to go... only to join and find yourself blacklisted because there's a ring with strength and spirit on it, and as a healing paladin you won it from a warrior who reported you
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u/Neat-Thanks7092 4h ago
Easy solution: if the mob is grey to any player in the party, nobody gets xp for that mob
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u/Rizyli 4h ago
This is how it works in hardcore. Not only.that, but you cant dungeon with 60s at all while leveling.
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u/MarzipanTechnical947 3h ago
Blizz also wants people out in the world leveling, not spamming SM or the same dungeon for 10 levels.
I disagree with the dungeon changes though. Spamming dungeons is boring as shit and only small portion of the population did it but at least was an option to those who hate questing.
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u/nicemace 2h ago
There is a middle ground between spamming dungeons and do it once. A lot of people sit in this middle ground.
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u/Gassenger 2h ago
Hooray! I get to compete with 20 different people for a quest mob that has 4 spawns! Goody goody gumdrops how fun!
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u/tsmftw76 3h ago
I don’t hate the principle but there’s got to be a middle ground either a debuff or a cap on daily dungeons. It feels super bad to run your friend through a wc that takes like an hour and a half with a newer group and get minimal exp.
Cap the dungeon to three lockouts a day or just have a two hour dungeon timer, or I’ve seen people suggest a stacking exp debuff. Also just make it so if anyone is 10 or more levels ahead of you then no one gets exp.
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u/darkspy13 2h ago
I don't see anything wrong with dungeon spamming through a level range you don't like the quests in. As long as everyone in the party is the appropriate level. They even joked when they said they added an alternative for the SM level range. I didn't know at the time they were going to prevent me from spamming SM+New dungeon, and instead force me to quest.
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u/Gassenger 2h ago
Noooo people have to play in the specific way I like to play or they're just heckin whinerinooooos
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u/willium563 3h ago
People do that because questing during first few weeks of a launch is impossible if you are with the main population, only way to combat this is a ridiculous amount of layers which then makes the world feel dead anyway (retail launches now may as well be solo)
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u/FinalFate 3h ago
People won't be out in the world past level 14 though. You can very easily do one run of each dungeon for the quests and get more than enough xp to level.
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u/Tooshortimus 2h ago
Who cares what they "want" though... the game is played the way the players want to play it.
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u/GreatBandito 3h ago
it is way less boring then "walk 5 minutes into the hills and kill 10 of x mob 10 of y mob and 8 of z mob" then killing things yourself. I would much rather be healing or tanking or fighting a boss than killing trash alone like 1/2 the quests if not more
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u/Mixels 2h ago
If that's their intention, they've done a crap job of it. Instead of dungeon dwelling for hours on end running dungeons on repeat, Blizzard has made it so you can speed run to 60 still by running dungeons exclusively by running each dungeon only once.
Blizzard should just accept that dungeons and raids are what some people like best about WoW and let us have it.
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u/Monikth 3h ago
This is already happening on the beta. I ran RFC with some people overleveled by a tad so most mobs were grey for them. I received 0 exp from the ones that were grey to the higher level party members.
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u/willium563 3h ago
You then have people complain about mages abusing pathing to abuse levelling (something I actually find really fun).
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u/Halomonger3 2h ago
People aren't doing it at grey levels, the xp is dogshit anyways, people are skipping things to get only quests done because xp sucks so bad for anything inside of a dungeon
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u/MimeTravler 4h ago
The fact that elite mobs in a group are worth less than regular mobs solo is kinda ridiculous.
I never liked spamming dungeons to level and enjoy questing much more but they should both be viable options. Grouping for dungeons brings players together just as much as their camp mechanics if not more imo.
Removing the summon stones works to bring people together because you need to be by the entrance to get an invite typically so people just hang out near it. But nerfing the xp just makes these runs shorter and during the run is when I meet the most people.
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u/ahumblepeach 2h ago
My complaint with the change is that, for healers and tanks, group play is their fantasy. If I want to level as a healer, I don't want to be spending all of my time in the world casting my two underwhelming DPS abilities while rarely getting to use all my healing buttons. I want to be standing in the back and helping my party take on more than one person can handle. Sure, I could group up to do quests (and I have been!), but that really is not the same thing. I sort of have a hard time putting it into words, but I feel like tanks and healers not getting to do as much dungeon running as they want takes away a part of the fun of leveling them. I might as well just reroll as a DPS spec if I'm going to be forced into the open world for most of my 1-60 journey. And with that in mind, I worry that this change is discouraging people from leveling healers and tanks.
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u/holypalaswe 1h ago
DPS players cannot fathom that as healers, we don't want to be doing damage, we want to be healing people.
You are entirely correct with your comment, but you still have players replying telling you to just spec DPS, or just equip a second gearset lol.
The game is way too centered around doing damage, with tanking and healing being an afterthought which the dungeon change is a great example of.
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u/komodo_lurker 1h ago
Hard agree here. Over the years I have several times leveled tank alts by only running dungeons and their pre quests. I love knowing each instance well and lead well. And doing it with full rested only really is fun and fast. Give me this option in Forever. Especially with all the new dungeons.
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u/Meaty_owl_legs 2h ago
They're are 100% actually discouraging people from leveling as tank or healer specs as group play is really focused on dungeons and not questing around as a 2-5 man group. There is absolutely going to be a real tank and healer shortage because people are going to be discouraged from leveling as those specs.
Not to say you can't level as those specs just fine, or you can't fill those roles without investing into those spec trees. But, there is going to be a lack of players willing to fill those roles because of the lack of incentive of tanking/healing when running dungeons more than once is so nerfed.
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u/Anesthetize85 3h ago
That guy here who suggested an xp debuff for repeated runs in a row nailed it imo.
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u/SimpleGuy4141 2h ago
I want to be rewarded with something for doing a dungeon a second time besides a chance at an item. If I get my items right off rip on my first run, there’s no incentive.
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u/OneOverXII 2h ago
Yup. Thats a solution that nicely addresses a lot of edge cases. The implementation might be more complicated idk how they’re handling disparate exp and dungeon id tracking
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u/Aria_A_Fox 2h ago
It could be maybe that you get a debuff when you leave any dungeon that reduces xp gained while instanced by x% and lasts y duration and continues to stack until it falls off. Biggest issue i see is maybe that people enter early(something like Scarlet monestary, so you avoid getting whacked by mobs while waiting outside) and some might need to step out and get repairs or summon someone. on the other hand, it would encourage people being prepared and close to the dungeon already before entering.
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u/Trygveseim 4h ago
Absolutely foreseeable outcome
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u/IAmOfficial 2h ago
Yep, got downvoted for saying this would happen and that ultimately dungeon boosters would still be selling boosts, it will just be a string of dungeon quest runs. All this really does is stop people from dungeoning who like to dungeon, and I thought the whole point of Forever is to play the way you want.
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u/Venedraea 3h ago
Yep, and it'll just get worse
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u/BarrettRTS 2h ago
Boosting is also going to still exist with the new changes. You'll get a mage sharing the dungeon quests, clearing it once with the group while they follow behind, then dropping a mage portal to the best hand in spot.
So instead of multiple runs for the mob xp, you just do a single slower run at a higher price point.
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u/Br0keNw0n 2h ago
It’s more than that. It’s also gonna lead (and I’ve already seen this first hand) to players dropping group as soon as a boss doesn’t drop the loot the want or as soon as their quest is completed. If there’s nothing to gain from completing the rest of a dungeon for the average player, relying on their altruism is never gonna work out.
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u/RoosterBrewster 1h ago
Sounds like in retail when people were farming the first boss in LFG and eventually blizzard had to implement a leaver debuff.
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u/THEBUS1NESS 2h ago
I agree. I love running dungeons for XP and upgrades. If you didn't get the upgrade you still had a whack of XP as a consolation. As it is, it just feels bad now.
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u/Sphinctus_ 44m ago
i probably have done 25+ dungeons in beta and have not experienced this at all.
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u/Irator1 3h ago
This is the first "dungeon change being bad" post i've seen that hasnt been downvoted to hell...
Dungeon xp changes were bad ideed and i have made posts about it on reddit and blizzard forums and it seems like the attitude towards the problem is shifting slightly.
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u/Dralun21 3h ago
Because people are insanely short sighted. I'm pretty confident as time goes on this change to dungeon xp will just look worse and worse.
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u/drylce101 3h ago
Will look bad when in a month tanks will be hard to find, especially one that has all their quests ready to go. I bet it’ll mostly be people with higher level guildies blasting them through the lower level dungeons for quests
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u/Coaxke 2h ago
Blizzard has also said they are open to adjusting it. I'm sure before all is said and done we'll land in a middle ground and everyone will forget all about it
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u/mindFlayer 2h ago
Anyone who has actually played the beta knows this change is bad. Literally everyone I've talked to in my groups are strongly opposed to the changes.
Only toxic casuals on here are mad about people wanting to grind XP in dungeon groups while they quest by themselves. They don't want other people to have more fun than them.
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u/Danul 39m ago
Some idiots keep on arguing that it's an improvement due to the "world being alive" with people running around questing or similar nonsense.
Even in Era this isn't an issue, so why would people choosing to dungeon spam be a problem when the current megaserver system ensures you are always on an active layer?
God forbid that players drawn to tank and healers rolls would actually want to play socially instead of questing, surely this current system won't result in tank and healer shortages!
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u/Legitimate_Match_708 3h ago
Yeah cause the monkeys paw curled and they finally get to see why its a stupid idea like we've been saying.
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u/Magisch_Cat 2h ago
I was gonna say, people called this exact scenario underneath the asinine posts suggesting this over the past 2 years.
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u/Deep-Cut201 1h ago
This sounds like the exact experience from classic wow. People will always complain youre wasting their time no matter you do. Trick is to find better people.
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u/YAABUGGN 1h ago
Agreed.
However I’d use the term “Find guild mates” or perhaps just socialize a bit more! I already met some really awesome people whom are added to my friends list now→ More replies (2)•
u/slashcuddle 1h ago
Problem is it only takes one guy to ruin the group dynamic. Every H SP I ran turned into a skip run because one person wouldn't stfu about it. Eventually needed to put "no skip" in listing and ask if "people were okay" when I sent out invites. Would hate to see the same thing happen in leveling dungeons.
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u/HoldenMcNeil420 47m ago
You know what actually creates a toxic meta. Trying to min max the entire fucking game endlessly.
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u/nacholibre711 4h ago
Really shortsighted and frankly bad solution. I agree we needed to nerf dungeon spamming, but there were so many better ways to go about it.
Dungeon quest speed runs aren't fun, dungeons are fun.
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u/avocadorancher 4h ago
As a newish player, why did dungeon spamming need to be nerfed?
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u/The-Only-Razor 2h ago
It didn't. Everyone saying it was the optimal way to level are wrong. Absolutely no leveling guide tuned to maximum efficiency recommends dungeon spam.
It's probably the laziest way to level, which I guess is a fair argument against it. I would argue that's fine though, and that these changes are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
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u/Mjolnoggy 3h ago edited 2h ago
>I agree we needed to nerf dungeon spamming
Dungeon spamming was on average less XP than purely questing, it was just convenient.
In truth, this was a change to try to combat dungeon boosters, but they arguably made it easier as it no longer requires a mage, just a semi-juiced 60 to do dungeon quest runs, and it also introduced a host of other issues and degenerate gameplay that wasn't present before.
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u/GreedyBeedy 3h ago
Its not even convenience.
Its fun to slaughter the dungeons with your boys in disc. Instead of waiting for everyone to just be in the same open world quests all the time.
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u/D119 3h ago
Yeah but at the end of the day is it worth to lose dungeons to fight boosting? Personally boosting doesn't affect my gameplay at all, not as much as losing the ability to run dungeons multiple times, which makes my gameplay miserable because I loved dungeons.
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u/Mjolnoggy 3h ago
I personally don't think it is, but now we're here and I doubt Blizz will backtrack on this.
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u/Tcallaway_14 2h ago
I liked the idea I saw where the first dungeon run a day is full xp. Then every run afterwards is diminishing returns.
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u/monkorn 1h ago
The vanilla way to handle this is every kill in the world grants you DOUBLE experience of kills within dungeons, until you use up all of your extra experience. You might be able to build up 2-3 dungeons worth, or about 1.5 levels, of experience before it runs out. We might call this 'dungeon rested'.
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u/Lucky-Peak-8256 4h ago
As a healer main it hurts somewhat because I use the later dungeons to farm exp to get to end game, i get they want me to quest and see the world, but sometimes gear doesn't overlap well for questing and dungeon healing properly.
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u/EmmaNielsen 3h ago
I personally think it's a wrong move.
i feel like World of warcraft should be a world where it's user decides how they wanna level. I.e. i could easily play with friends and lvl a healer by spamming dungeons with them. if i wanna do story i do story, everything should be a choice.
My first playthrough i'll only do dungeons if i have a story quest that brings me into one.
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u/Slow-haste-26 2h ago
Ive never understood skipping mobs. Like I get not going out of your way but to hug the wall and do crazy stuff dosnt make sense. Sure xp is low now but the loot!!
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u/LulzLookatTheseNoobs 1h ago
This always happens. The main problem with mega servers is people do toxic shit with no consequences
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u/Chrinkus 55m ago
Don’t blame the game. Players are always the cause of a toxic meta. Players created the circumstances that led to the xp changes. Players did shitty skips before the xp changes.
Be nice to people, make friends, work together. Enjoy the adventure.
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u/So_Full_Of_Fail 43m ago
IMO, the real crack in this plan will show only from 50-59.
The stage where you're also farming pre-raid while getting XP.
Now you can choose to farm gear or level. With repeated runs not offering much XP I expect a lot of gear getting reserved by people for dungeons they already ran for quests. This part will never go away.
At 60, XP doesn't matter.
Below 50, none/very little of the gear is going to be kept at 60 anyway.
You can still boost with the new model, you're just doing it by quest completion. Grind a character without dungeons, keep 40 dungeon quests. Summon people to the dungeon, share the quests, and quick slam them with your geared guy.
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u/LordMorza 28m ago
I purposely do a full quest clear when tanking a dungeon just in case someone’s on the quests, which you can see now by mousing over the mobs, while I’m tanking. I’ve had people get mad over it and I just tell them they can leave and I’ll have a replacement dps in few minutes. Seconds if they’re already outside the dungeon.
Edit: when tanking a dungeon again for loot*
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u/willium563 3h ago
Its really put me off doing dungeons if I dont have all the quests too now and feel like ive outleveled them by time I decide to gather the quests up etc.
Stupid change, very little benefit and extremely game changing.
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u/Responsible-Soup-727 1h ago
I think that everyone is making to big of a deal about everything.
There are so many people playing and you don't need to join a speed run. Form your own group.
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u/Arcael_Boros 3h ago
Doing a dungeon once for quests isn't ruined by taking a slightly longer, safer route, in those cases, an extra 5-10mins barely matters on a single run. The efficiency pressure really comes from dungeon spamming, where 10 extra minutes multiplied over 5+ runs adds up fast.
By your logic, spaming dungeons would be far worse for new players.
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u/Randvek 2h ago
Have you run any dungeons in the beta yet? There’s definitely the expectation that your group will pull the minimum. It’s not just isolated to a few problem players.
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u/Loyalist_Pig 1h ago
Man all this retail community speedrunning minmaxxing bullshit just makes me hope for the Hardcore release sooner than later.
Crazy how toxic this game has seemingly become just in the beta :(
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u/Gukle 1h ago
It's not retail. It's the thing called WCL gets to dictates how players play the game. Stack ranking brings out the most vile shit from people. It was a tool intended to replay encounters, but now it has become a thing for toxic sweats to feel good about themselves and label others as "trash/noob".
Invention of WCL and Raiderio is what led retail to become the soulless stack ranking game today; everybody is just a slave to the ranking and ratings.
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u/Pale-Consideration44 1h ago
The toxic people will all get to max lvl real quick and get bored.
I plan on taking my time and enjoy the leveling experience/community. I’m playing Shaman and healing through dungeons so if they try to rush it and don’t get healed fast enough then 🤷. I’m not a speed runner, idgaf.
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u/Kaiserliche_Marine_1 52m ago
LOL Gather round the fire and allow me to regale you with a tale from the depths of the distant past, some nigh 20 years hence now, during the time of Vanilla in 2005. The horror known as LF3M LBRS stealth run (Druids/rogues only.)
In the oldest times of this game, the dude bros have always sought to skip as much of it as humanly possible, with the explanation "I've only got so much time." Welp, nothing in this game is ever going to get you more time, so it really doesn't either way, but it was always code for "I only get enjoyment if I can convince myself that I'm better than someone else at something." It is critical to remember that they pay their subscription fee and have every right to try to play the game their way, so the answer remains make friends with people who shate your desire to run the whole instance and learn it. Then play with those friends more and do more content with them and ignore the E-Chads. That is the only way you'll enjoy this version of the game, don't be the fun police, just don't engage with the elements that frustrate you, Azeroth's a big place and there's more than enough room
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u/FightinVitamin 3h ago
As an old man who played WoW on release, most of the dungeons I did while levelling my first character were with a similar group of people. Partly this was because of server sizes, so I'd naturally be in /LFG with people who were levelling around the same speed. But another reason was that dungeon groups were a lot of logistical effort: finding people, getting to the zone, learning the pulls/bosses, etc. IME, the people who got used to doing dungeons while levelling would do them frequently. Players who never tried dungeons may have been discouraged by the effort required to get started, but this was offset by the number of people who tried dungeons, liked them despite the effort, and kept doing them. I worry that now there won't be nearly as many people doing dungeons, since people who overcome the logistic hurdle will now be done earning exp from that dungeon, and people who are dissuaded by the logistics still won't try.
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u/cak12king 2h ago
I don’t like the idea of a dungeon lockout because I usually quest for levels and spam dungeons for gear, rinse and repeat till I hit 60
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u/Aggravating-Ad-4801 2h ago
I sometimes dungeon grind for an item or when a quest area is to populated, I get frustrated not being able to tag a mob that has a 10% drop chance of the quest item.
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u/Spikymikeyy 2h ago
I hope they buff exp from dungeons honestly, I enjoyed doing dungeons for exp especially if you meet an awesome group you vibe with.
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u/krolltheknight4ever 1h ago
Make your own group and establish the rules in the notes
Say something like “full clear, all mobs” or say “if it’s red, it’s dead”
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u/barrsftw 1h ago
First lockout of the day - normal xp. All others can be like it is now. Problem solved.
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u/DistrictDupont 46m ago
I can’t upvote this enough. I’m a healer and I LOVE healing dungeons down to every last pull
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u/Hobbs512 3h ago
"veteran" players will not be spamming hall of thanes and ruins to get lvl 20 BiS gear on release as much. They'll just continue to level. It won't be a big of an issue on launch imo.
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u/Opening_Tea_9459 3h ago
I have run every dungeon several times and never ran into this issue.
Easy solution, when you list your grp put "No skips" in the description. When you apply to a grp ask them if they're going to be rushing through using skips or not.
Classic is about being social.
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u/HaroerHaktak 4h ago
Honestly, I'm looking forward to people getting flamed on for not taking the most optimal route in low level dungeons like deadmines, stockades and the new ironforge dungeon.
And groups disbanding because you wiped.
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u/viktorKurz 2h ago
I think dungeon XP nerf is one of the biggest misses they have done this time around. There was nothing wrong with dungeon grinding. The devs are investing way too much time in telling you how they feel optimal leveling should look. Kind of kills the spirit of classic.
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u/nsaman3 1h ago
This change was entirely overtuned. 75% xp on mobs is already detrimental to dungeon leveling, no need for 90% or higher. I don't think it's unreasonable for four people to have to wait for a member to attack something that effectively is gray for their personal enjoyment. I'm against the xp change entirely as the player should chose what they think is the fun way to play
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4h ago
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u/mindFlayer 4h ago edited 2h ago
Imagine being this naive lol
EDIT: basically he said that only try hard sweat lords are doing dungeons in beta right now and this won't be an issue on release
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u/GreedyBeedy 3h ago
They are right. Took me a long time to just get into WC as a healer because so many people were worried I was going to roll on the fang gear.
In the beta…
No one is farming out that set on launch. They will obviously just keep leveling.
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u/potatoelover69 3h ago
There will always be casuals who just play the game for fun. Not once have I had trouble finding those groups in Era and TBC.
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u/Fun_Literature_2710 4h ago
I'll be healing dungeons as I level but there really isn't a point in me doing a leveling dungeon more than once. I wish there was more incentive but I'm not going to farm a piece of leveling gear if the xp isn't worth going back
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u/commonCranberry999 4h ago
yeah obviously thats what happens when you encourage people to kill as less trash as possible
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u/frycum 3h ago
I hate the change. I want the higher xp from killing elite mobs and ill kill every dang one. I dont want to skip half a dungeon and wipe the group if someone messes up. I liked the idea someone posted about a debuff that lowers your xp the more you do a dungeon in a day.
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u/Darthmullet 2h ago
I think trying to optimize a one-time dungeon run experience which you aren't grinding is silly. Play with people who want the same things as you.
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u/Tyriosh 3h ago
as a new player, getting into dungeons with more veteran players who try to skip half the dungeon feels really bad
I feel like its the other way around. Some of my negative experiences in classic dungeons were groups of people who wanted to optimize dungeon grinding and were annoyed if you didnt know the specific strats for that, especially as a tank. If I'm running a dungeon once or twice, I'm much more likely to stick together because replacing someone is a waste of time.
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u/Lelu_zel 3h ago edited 2h ago
If only there was a way to make own group and invite people of your choice so you don’t have to deal with „pro” groups doing skips.
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u/Gassenger 2h ago
WHO COULD HAVE FORESEEN THIS!?
Except everyone that immediately saw this was a dogass change.
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u/McSwoopyarms 2h ago
It's a horrible design choice and I hate the fact that some bozo's decision at some developer roundtable at Blizz HQ affects my enjoyment of the game so much.
There's literally zero incentive to re-run an instance now, period. Didn't get the item you were chasing, like the full Armor of the Fang set on your druid? Well, you can run it again and get absolutely zero benefit from it, other than another chance at a drop. Didn't drop or someone else won the roll? Tough luck, you just wasted an hour and gained absolutely nothing.
And why? Because "Blizzard wants people in the overworld". Well for starters, dungeon quests give such insane XP atm that you can still skip a large portion of the outdoor quests. But I also feel that Blizzard dictating how people should play their game goes very much against the spirit of Classic (my idea of it, anyway).
If they want to counter the "dungeon farming powerleveling" meta or the booster meta, there are better ways to achieve that. Disable all party XP when the mob is grey for any party member. Do a stacking -% XP debuff for every instance ID you enter that day. Plenty of good suggestions to go about. Just don't use this "run each dungeon once and skip as much as possible while you're at it" approach, for the love of God.
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u/MrGOOGIE 2h ago edited 2h ago
I did one rfc run followed by one rol run. It brought me from 14 to 19. I’ve never skipped so much barrens quest in my wow vanilla and classic career. Heck the forgotten pool quest was grey after that. I don’t think I’ve ever NOT done that quest before.
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u/ConniesCurse 4h ago
if people are only doing dungeons a single time people won't be running them enough to actually know the skips. Metas like skipping develop because people have to run content a billion times. I think this problem is overblown.
Skipping will not really be worth the effort when you only have to do the dungeon a single time.
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u/Insidious_Bagel 3h ago
You are failing to account for the fact that forever encourages you to level multiple characters for legacy talent points.
This is also not accounting for dungeons 55+ where people will be running multiple times for the gear drops.
Also speaking from personal experience most people also run the dungeon around 2-3 times to snag a few gear drops. I imagine this will be even more common now that they are nerfing the quest rewards
This is absolutely a problem and needs to be addressed. Mt first run of RoL was glorious with the group exploring and figuring out where to go. By the third day of beta the runs turned into chuds pinging the optimal route and getting annoyed when people pulled extra packs
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u/Araethor 3h ago
A cool solution would be more rewarding chests, increased mats, increased greens, increased BOE drops, or even reputation. Not too much of any one or else it will induce farming, but if they increased each by about 25% from where it is now, it would make doing the dungeon as is more rewarding
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u/GreatBandito 3h ago
They should not nerf dungeons just buff quests to be equal. A big way to do this is hand out the legacy points for finishing zones then people will have to do them anyways. dont nerf the fun group stuff because some people would rather quest alone instead of the fun parts of the game
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u/Allurai 2h ago
this is one of those be careful what you wish for moments - where people want things such as no dungeon spammers, without fully understanding what the ramifications of what that outcome actually entails
dungeons will either be worth being in as much as possible, or be worth doing as little as possible - the notion there is a middle ground is a complete fantasy
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u/pertur4bo 2h ago
They could introduce some kind of trash counter that needs to be filled to complete the dungeon to avoid excessive skipping...
...
Is game design in WoW a circle?
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u/aAdramahlihk 4h ago
Yeah, the exp nerf is such a stupid design and goes against the freedom of how to play, let people dungeon spam if they want to level, who cares anyway?
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u/TheseNamesDontMatter 4h ago
If ive learned anything from this sub, the average classic player cares far more about how others play the game than their own experience.
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u/Firm-Low5886 4h ago
Fair point. Mobs in dungeons can also drop good loot that would be valuable in the AH or possible equipmemt upgrades. IMO still worth it to do the mobs. I sell every BoE I find that I don't use. I guess that doesn't matter much if your focus is speed leveling.
I think at launch we'll be dungeoning with some of the race yo 60 croud and that is how they are going to do it. For us casuals you'll be good grouping with us. There's a lot of WoW players that don't give a shit and just want to enjoy the game.
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u/SloboGaming 2h ago
Blizz needs to add an objective that rewards xp for clearing the whole dungeon, meaning all bosses and adds need to die. Only way to “make” the group clear everything, alternatively perhaps 90% of the minions but with anything less than 100% it will trigger dungeon pathing.
Couple this with a reduced xp reward by 33% each time you do the same dungeon with a 24 hr cooldown is the way.
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u/Manzhah 1h ago
That and make it so all the mobs in the dungeon get aggroed when you pull the als boss (or within region of the dungeon for really big ones like brd)
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u/hellyeah222 2h ago
Major overreaction.
This is the beta. The proportion of sweats is much larger in the beta than when the Live game comes out.
Not to mention, it's a level 20 beta which means that a lot of players are running around on their 2nd, 3rd, 5th, or even 8th Alt. Of course in that scenario people will do whatever they can to cut corners and play games winthin a game.
If you're a casual newbie, just wait for the full game. Why even bother playing the beta?
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u/Cassp3 3h ago
I haven't been in a single dungeon where people are "Skipping everything".
I'm just going to flat out and say these are just bullshit anecdotes made up by people who just want dungeon spamming back.
The dungeons we have are literally walk in a straight line and kill the mobs on the way. Maybe you might be skiping 1 or 2 packs somewhere that would literally be skipped anyway.
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u/Unclefox82 4h ago
Sorry but even without the nerf gamers will still skip whatever they can.
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u/mindFlayer 4h ago
No, if the XP wasn't nerfed people would be pulling packs to gain the XP. This is the whole reason people spammed dungeons in the first place, to kill mobs.
Now, if you pull additional packs it literally feels like you are being punished. It takes a minute to clear the pack and get ~100xp.
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u/Gh0stMan0nThird 4h ago
Yep, I remember so many failed Blackrock runs because some genius wanted to save 0.25 seconds skipping 3 enemies and ended up pulling 207 in the process
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u/Rejolt 3h ago
This is a lot less toxic than the alternative where everyone is just forming SPELL CLEAVE groups to farm dungeons over and over and over and over.
Blame min-max mentality not the dungeon change
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u/fishbake 2h ago
If the problem is spell cleave, wouldn't it make more sense to just nerf spells and cleaves?
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u/CuteSquirrel01 2h ago
Been playing through TBC classic for the last couple months and no one is doing that. It's just people leveling like you'd expect, although there are people leveling as holy pally or prot warrior because they spam LFG but I didn't see a single group asking for spell cleave it was all LF2M DPS or LF1M Tank etc.
I imagine the people who do that are the day 1 rush to max people.
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u/Calamari_Gourmet 2h ago
Min maxing is always going to be a thing. Never gonna go away in an MMORPG
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u/RoosterBrewster 1h ago
Why is there so much discussion on meta and trying to make everything balanced and optimized? Almost sounds like people want to make the game into retail.
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u/Supreme_Salt_Lord 2h ago
This is a people problem. Dont dungeon spam if you dont want to. No clue how people can be bothered by other people choosing to play differently.
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u/khronics134 2h ago
Is that toxic? Let people who want to grind dungeons do that, now we that have enough quests to quest all the way to 60, i can't see the vast majority doing that.
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u/Snoringdog83 3h ago
If anything it make you play with players you know, this incentivises getting to know ppl in the game to group with. No need to do any skips and saving often less than 5 minutes over the entire dungeon is not worth it its not fking mythic+
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u/mmr93 3h ago
Yeah this was my concern as soon as the changes were announced, especially fresh coming off TBC phase 1 where Slave Pens skips created a lot of frustration/toxicity.
I think reverting the XP nerfs, but adding a diminishing return personal-debuff (ex: every X mobs you kill in a specific dungeon each day reduces your XP gained from that dungeon by Y%) might be a reasonable compromise.
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u/Thunder797 2h ago
Nobody will be running dungeons like they do on live. People on beta are trying to min max lvl 20 so they are rerunning the same dungeon over and over for no xp gain
On live people will do quest runs once and move on until max lvl dungeons
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u/Plunkerton_ 2h ago
Yeah i kinda wanted to level a healer and just kinda run dungeons to level. I know its repetitive but I did it in vanilla once and really enjoyed it. With this change I feel like that just isnt an option. I expect we'll see far fewer healers and tanks because of this, and it takes away a way to play the game
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u/Vehemental 2h ago
This existed in 2005 even, especially in level 60 dungeons where people were just gear farming to hit bosses over and over. Your argument that this makes it worse has merit - but just remember that sweaters are going to sweat even if something is 1% better they'll do it.
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u/Icy-Dare-4388 2h ago
Anecdotally I've had nothing but great times during the beta so far in dungeons. Maybe this'll change once the game has been out for a significant length of time but so far its just been people absolutely stoked to play, help each other out and have fun.
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u/Outofmana1337 2h ago
Yeah it reminds me of playing SWTOR 3-4 years after quitting at the start, I tried to do some dungeons and the party just shot forward skipping and jumping around every almost every singlepack, obviously I lost them and I got shit on in chat. Same thing will happen to new players here.
Never understood this change, mobtagging aint fun on release and chill drunk dungeons with friends leveling is amazing and a staple of vanilla wow.
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u/Dapper_Beginning3591 2h ago
It’s makes running BRD over and over less interesting. Because you want to start collecting gear at 52, but can’t get the xp. So the road to 60 from 50 is going to be a dry grind. Right now doing a few dungeon runs and questing, grinding mobs on the side is already a good balance.
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u/OXBDNE7331 3h ago
One negative is that if the majority of the group has already completed the dungeon quests and one person needs an out of the way mob or item good luck getting the group to clear towards it