r/classicwow • u/redlow0992 • 4h ago

Forever Beta Feedback Dungeon XP Nerfs Created a Toxic Meta

Since dungeon monsters do not give any experience, as a new player, getting into dungeons with more veteran players who try to skip half the dungeon feels really bad. And, vice-versa, veterans taking in newbies who don't know how to jump around feels frustrating. I think Blizzard created a mess with nerfing dungeon exp so much and now the new player experience is horrible for dungeons.

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u/Neat-Thanks7092 4h ago

Easy solution: if the mob is grey to any player in the party, nobody gets xp for that mob

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u/Rizyli 4h ago

This is how it works in hardcore. Not only.that, but you cant dungeon with 60s at all while leveling.

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u/Ashleynn 4h ago

Yes no helping friends. Level 60's cant be fraternizing with the dirty low levels.

Look I dont care what HC does, that as a rule set can have what ever janky rules it wants. Can we stop trying to make the normal game worse for everyone just because you dont like how other people choose to play?

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u/Easy_Effective_6394 3h ago

It stops boosting. It’s worth it

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u/Gassenger 3h ago

Lmao there are so many better ways to stop boosting, and there are already people who are boosting even in the beta for rmt.

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u/Yeti90 3h ago

You see, "choose to play" is an argument often made, sure I agree but once meta wh*res establish a certain meta there is basically no room for other styles of playing the game anymore, which leads to no new players which leads to the game dying. If you want a healthy population you may need to sacrifice some freedom. Unwritten rules enforced by a hivemind lead by minmax efficiency culture, who treat the game as if it was some lean production facility, that needs to deliver their target KPIs can lead to a forced gamestyle for everyone else. So we might as well force the gamestyle with some guide rails set by the developers.

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u/Ashleynn 3h ago

"PLAY HOW I WANT YOU TO PLAY!!!!!"

Yet you sit here thinking you're any different from the "meta whores." You want to force people into playing how you think they should be playing. No one is forcing you to follow a meta. No one is forcing you to race to 60, or dungeon spam if you want to quest, or buying boosts for your 6th alt if you don't want to. Nothing is forced on you. The only people here trying to force anyone to do anything are the ones who belive people need to "sacrifice some freedom."

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u/NotRelatedBitch 2h ago

Tonedeaf take. Let’s say the way I want to play the game is with a lot of PvP in STV like back in the good ole days - this is just an example, there are 1.000.000 cases - how can I do that when all the other players go in a dungeon and turn on Netflix?

How can I focus on my herbalism profession when all the Lotus are taken by tauren bots?

How can I get into Molten Core when the raidleader decided that Shadow Priest is bad? I can choose to play a shadow priest even if it isn’t meta, free will is nice, but then I have to forego a lot of social opportunity and content because of a meta.

How other players play and perceive correct play directly influences your allowed play patterns. This is not a single player game.

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u/Ashleynn 2h ago

Let’s say the way I want to play the game is with a lot of PvP in STV like back in the good ole days

You mean ganking and corpse camping players 20 levels lower than you. I played on a PvP server in vanilla, several of them. I know what wPvP actually is. Is not what you all try to sell it off as.

How can I focus on my herbalism profession when all the Lotus are taken by tauren bots?

The fuck does this have to do with people running dungeons, or players in general? This is completely separate issue.

How can I get into Molten Core when the raidleader decided that Shadow Priest is bad?

Make your own raid group, or find a raid leader willing to drag along dead weight. No one decided Shadow Priest was bad. The devlopers made it bad, like really, really bad. No one is going to willingly sandbag their group to bring a spec that can't do it's job. Thats got nothing to do with the players and everything to do with the balance team actually doing their job.

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u/Charlotta23 2h ago

Too bad. Enjoy WoW Forever.

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u/Several-Video-272 2h ago

jesus christ some of you people like actually really need to touch grass holyy

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u/Ashleynn 2h ago

I'm not the one trying to dictate how others interact with the game. I want people to be able to choose how to do that.

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u/Several-Video-272 2h ago

Me too! But you're way too upset about this in a reddit thread screaming at one or two people, when nobody is actually telling anyone how to play the game, just mentioning how it works in Hardcore.

Any time anyone ever suggests a change, they're deciding how someone else would play too. It's not about wanting to force other people to do what you want though is it?

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u/Ashleynn 2h ago

Theres no screaming here, just snark and sarcasm.

When the suggested changes remove options it's specifically to railroad people into a certian playstyle. These people don't want them to have any freedom to choose how they interact with the game. The person I initially replied to here even straight up stated we need to sacrifice the freedom to engage eith the game how we choose to have a "healthy population." Whatever thats suppose to mean. These suggested changes are absolutely, specifically, to force others into a deemed acceptable playstyle.

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u/Yeti90 3h ago

I don't expect of some meta sweat to understand how social dynamics work, especially in a massive multiplayer online game, that they treat like a single player game. But when you are dependent on other people to solve the content and the majority follows the meta, because some streamer or some spreadsheet warrior on the discord said so, then there is essentially no other way to play the game. Unwritten laws or social constraints can be as restrictive as written laws, especially in an environment where you are dependent on others. But like I said, you probably don't understand that as you treat the game as a single player experience.

Keep delivering the KPIs brother, corporate needs to see some DPS results by noon!

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u/Gassenger 3h ago

This is the lamest argument man. You're being disingenous and painting everyone who disagrees with you as a caricature.

There is no dungeon spamming "meta". Open world questing has been the fastest way to level. You talk about spreadsheet warriors and streamers while fundamentally misunderstanding that dungeon spamming has been slower for leveling. The speedrunners don't even set foot into dungeons lmao. The minmax culture you're talking about doesn't spam dungeons outside of tbc where rep grinding is the most efficient route. Even then, you will get to 70 far faster in tbc by open world questing.

Before you say something about streamers or following a meta just stop. I don't watch anyone and I play how I want to, and 5 man dungeons happen to be the most fun way for me to play personally.

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u/Yeti90 2h ago

I am talking about speedrunning dungeons meta and optimising the fun out of the game with all bis gear lists min max crap, I am not talking about dungeon spamming, OOP talked about the toxic meta of skip running everything.

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u/Gassenger 52m ago

How is doing dungeons optimizing the fun out of the game when they are a suboptimal play? Because you, personally, don't like doing them?

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u/MarzipanTechnical947 4h ago

Blizz also wants people out in the world leveling, not spamming SM or the same dungeon for 10 levels.

I disagree with the dungeon changes though. Spamming dungeons is boring as shit and only small portion of the population did it but at least was an option to those who hate questing.

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u/nicemace 2h ago

There is a middle ground between spamming dungeons and do it once. A lot of people sit in this middle ground.

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u/darkspy13 3h ago

I don't see anything wrong with dungeon spamming through a level range you don't like the quests in. As long as everyone in the party is the appropriate level. They even joked when they said they added an alternative for the SM level range. I didn't know at the time they were going to prevent me from spamming SM+New dungeon, and instead force me to quest.

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u/Gassenger 2h ago

Noooo people have to play in the specific way I like to play or they're just heckin whinerinooooos

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u/Gassenger 2h ago

Hooray! I get to compete with 20 different people for a quest mob that has 4 spawns! Goody goody gumdrops how fun!

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u/tsmftw76 4h ago

I don’t hate the principle but there’s got to be a middle ground either a debuff or a cap on daily dungeons. It feels super bad to run your friend through a wc that takes like an hour and a half with a newer group and get minimal exp.

Cap the dungeon to three lockouts a day or just have a two hour dungeon timer, or I’ve seen people suggest a stacking exp debuff. Also just make it so if anyone is 10 or more levels ahead of you then no one gets exp.

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u/Nessarra 2h ago

There are MMOs with daily and weekly dungeon caps. Felt bad.

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u/GreatBandito 1h ago

there doesn't though. if someone only wants to do dungeons just let them it isn't stopping you from not doing what you want

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u/JonBot5000 1h ago

No, it's only stopping them from progressing. You're either naive or being deliberately obtuse.

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u/GreatBandito 1h ago

how would people running dungeons stop you from progessing? you either A) want to run dungeons to progress so that is being solved or B) dont want to do dungeons, which you are unaffected by any changes to dungeons

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u/JonBot5000 46m ago

Ok, so you're being obtuse...

How hard is it to understand that people want to gain experience progression for the activities they enjoy doing pre-60?

There's a difference between people wanting to do dungeons purely for progression and people wanting to do activities they enjoy and not wanting their progression gimped because of it.

STOP BEING OBTUSE!

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u/GreatBandito 13m ago

how do you not experience progression....? you are getting new abilities, ranks of abilities, talent points and new gear as you level. Just because some people (i.e. Me) would rather be in dungeons the whole time does not mean that it stops other people from questing if thats how they want to progress. The fix is not nerfing one its just to have options for what to do. 1 will always be more optimized and if you want to follow the big blue arrow on auto run doing all the fetch quests thats also fine but i find it super boring and would rather be in a group. You're acting like if you don't make dungeons the worst possible experience then you won't be able to properly quest outside of them, that is crazy to me

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u/willium563 3h ago

People do that because questing during first few weeks of a launch is impossible if you are with the main population, only way to combat this is a ridiculous amount of layers which then makes the world feel dead anyway (retail launches now may as well be solo)

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u/FinalFate 3h ago

People won't be out in the world past level 14 though. You can very easily do one run of each dungeon for the quests and get more than enough xp to level.

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u/Mixels 2h ago

If that's their intention, they've done a crap job of it. Instead of dungeon dwelling for hours on end running dungeons on repeat, Blizzard has made it so you can speed run to 60 still by running dungeons exclusively by running each dungeon only once.

Blizzard should just accept that dungeons and raids are what some people like best about WoW and let us have it.

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u/Fragrant-Equipment43 2h ago

I wonder if thats actually possible. If so, thats 100% what I will do since hate questing and will play prot paly

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u/Tooshortimus 2h ago

Who cares what they "want" though... the game is played the way the players want to play it.

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u/GreatBandito 3h ago

it is way less boring then "walk 5 minutes into the hills and kill 10 of x mob 10 of y mob and 8 of z mob" then killing things yourself. I would much rather be healing or tanking or fighting a boss than killing trash alone like 1/2 the quests if not more

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u/Calm-Gazelle-6563 51m ago

With that change you wouldn’t be alone out there, that’s the point.

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u/Round-Butterscotch48 4h ago

People go where the loot is.

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u/G00SFRABA 1h ago

and most importantly, people who play a spec that sucks at solo questing.

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u/AdventurousBase221 1h ago

blizzard already had systems in place to do that though is the entire point.

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u/Cheesedude666 1h ago

Meanwhile out in the open world: 100s of people waiting around a camp of gnolls fighting over who gets the tags. Aggressive layering mixing up your entire world and all the potential friends and enemies on your way. Each zone is a fragmented part of the world. You phase in and out of instances all the time crossing borders, sailing routes.

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u/Yyoksetioxd 3h ago edited 3h ago

if they nerf the dungeon xp enough so running dungeons is not the meta, most of the people will be questing instead, but the people who hate questing will have an alternative. it's a win-win. Also I think you can interact way more with people doing dungeons than in the world, it's VERY strange to do several quests together, but it's not that weird running multiple dungeons together.

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u/Gassenger 2h ago

Why do people keep talking about dungeon running like it was faster? Open world questing has always been the quickest way to level. Rxp doesnt even route you to touch a dungeon unless you specifically tell it to

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u/itsablackhole 3h ago

and only small portion of the population did it

SoD phase 2 begs to differ. A good chunk definitely burned themselves out spamming SM to 40 and then blamed the devs for making them do this. Blizz answered with a flat 150% XP boost and Incursions in p3.

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u/datboijustin 3h ago

That had more to do with the phases causing gargantuan questing bottlenecks. For the first week or two it was barely even possible to quest to level because there were 50k players competing for 8 mobs spawns.

Edit: Also that specific level range is a very popular "farm dungeons" strategy because it's where questing could be rather sparce and spread out due to lack of quests in that level range + SM just happens to have 4 dungeons spanning roughly levels 28-42 ish.

Point being, it was a unique circumstance and we shouldn't be using it as a bogeyman to make sweeping changes to a system that has worked fine for the last 22 years.

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u/itsablackhole 2h ago edited 2h ago

oh I know why the players did it. I'm just saying that maybe the devs have the feeling of having to protect the players from themselves again if they fear Forever having a compareable quest competition at times. The OP I replied to said it's a ''small portion'' who resort to that kind of gameplay and I pointed out that if dungeons are that much better than questing it's more than just a ''small portion'' doing this.

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u/datboijustin 1h ago

It's never been an issue in any other iteration of WoW and there's absolutely no reason to think it would be this time either. The ONLY thing that caused that was the level cap gating of SoD which does not exist in this version of WoW.

It's fixing a problem that doesn't exist by creating new problems.

Personally, I don't really care, I'll be playing regardless and questing for 95% of the time with or without these changes, but it feels super bad for the players that want to level through dungeons and I am never in favor of a game company taking options away from players.

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u/vincentkun 3h ago

I don't know what % of the population would spam dungeons, but if I had to guess, it's probably closer to 50% than not.

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u/Monikth 4h ago

This is already happening on the beta. I ran RFC with some people overleveled by a tad so most mobs were grey for them. I received 0 exp from the ones that were grey to the higher level party members.

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u/willium563 3h ago

You then have people complain about mages abusing pathing to abuse levelling (something I actually find really fun).

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u/mrbuh 1h ago

I think the right answer is to fix the geography exploits that let you climb to unintended places, not to nerf the XP for everyone.

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u/Halomonger3 3h ago

People aren't doing it at grey levels, the xp is dogshit anyways, people are skipping things to get only quests done because xp sucks so bad for anything inside of a dungeon

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u/So_Full_Of_Fail 1h ago

The no XP at grey levels is to discourage boosting.

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u/Byukin 3h ago

This is the solutuon but just a bit overkill, a level 22 could conceivably be in deadmines. Maybe more like 10 levels above?

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u/xBirdisword 3h ago

Some dungeons have weird curves though like RFK and Ulda, so that would need to be addressed first

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u/Neat-Thanks7092 2h ago

To add: I think another consequence will
Be all the elite mobs outside of dungeons will be camped by boosters non stop. People leveling won’t be able to do elite quests out in the world.

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u/5panks 2h ago

That's only a solution for boosting. That's not a solution for Blizzard's stated goal at Blizzcon which is to get people out in the world doing things and not spamming the same dungeon four times an hour.

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u/moke993 1h ago

Part of the issue then is that you’ll out level the zone and dungeon if you want a specific piece of loot. I like being able to run a dungeon multiple times for loot without the fear of leveling up and missing out on finish the zone I’m in. What I’d really like is if they allowed us to set our xp rate to be lower. 0%-100%. Let me show down my xp or even stop it entirely so that i can enjoy the zones and dungeons to their fullest

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u/GlacierSourCreamCorn 4h ago

This isn’t perfect either for dungeons with wide level ranges.

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u/drylce101 4h ago

I mean currently all mobs in dungeons are basically grey so this is still better

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u/ShoulderpadInsurance 4h ago

Then BRD has no xp for anyone

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u/reezy-one 3h ago

Easier solution: just group with me! I'm a tank and I will just pull what I want.

Gonna bind /say "we take 5 seconds to pull this or you spend 5 hours looking for a new tank. Fuck your skips." To my shoot key.

Yes I am a genius, no need to thank me.

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u/Mixels 2h ago

There are a lot of solutions.

Reduce character power to the highest level of the level range assigned to the dungeon for any player above that level range.

Don't give any party XP for kills that are gray to any player in the group.

Reduce dungeon XP proportionately (so if the level 60 kills an enemy that grants XP, everyone else in the group gets only the amount of XP they should get from a mob that cons the same as what the mob the 60 killed gives).

Just straight don't allow players over the range recommended for the dungeon to enter the dungeon.

This isn't rocket science. This isn't 2004. All of these things have been done by other games. Come on Blizzard. Why pick the worst possible idea for solving this problem over less invasive solutions that better address the actual problem?

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u/Dabeston 4h ago

With all the xp being behind quests it doesn’t matter

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u/ChorizoBlanco 4h ago

The change proposed only works if they revert back the changes that reduced dungeon XP, so this is assuming you’re getting good XP from the run and not just the quests.

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u/PresToon 3h ago

this doesn't stop mage groups spamming SM for dungeons with 4 blizzards.

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u/Evenwithcontxt 3h ago

Which btw, who cares if groups do that? Lol

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u/darkspy13 3h ago

From what I've read. Blizzard was nerfed? You have to CoC kite now, which is much more difficult. and as long as they are all the correct level for the dungeon... Where is the issue? The fact that they aren't forced to quest? Especially on a PvE server, I don't get the "we can't allow people to do a dungeon 3 times" thought process. I really liked just running the dungeon back with the group a time or two if they agreed at the end of the first run. Made the trip up to SM as an alliance feel rewarding.

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u/Evenwithcontxt 3h ago

Yeah exactly. Not to mention plenty of people love getting to that level range where you can just grind tf out of SM from like 29-38 or w/e. Sure it gets tedious after a bit, but it's always been something to look forward to while leveling imo

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u/PresToon 3h ago

Very true, but keep in mind we think this about everything. And there are always people that will care.