r/classicwow • u/redlow0992 • 4h ago

Forever Beta Feedback Dungeon XP Nerfs Created a Toxic Meta

Since dungeon monsters do not give any experience, as a new player, getting into dungeons with more veteran players who try to skip half the dungeon feels really bad. And, vice-versa, veterans taking in newbies who don't know how to jump around feels frustrating. I think Blizzard created a mess with nerfing dungeon exp so much and now the new player experience is horrible for dungeons.

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u/Afraid-Document-8597 4h ago

I think you are right and this is indeed an unintended consequence. Its gonna become all about skips and jumps and stealth tech. Where as before we pulled most the dungeon or didnt play as safe because we wanted the xp anyway

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u/The-Only-Razor 3h ago

My absolute fucking least favorite part of retail M+ is the stupid route planning trash. I just want to enter a dungeon and kill everything. Optimal pathing and efficiency maxing isn't fun when it involves doing everything you can to play the game as little as possible.

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u/587493 3h ago

Dude same I remember a few years ago I was giving retail a try and excited to run mythic+ only to find out what m+ runs actually ended up being

I left retail and never went back, even though I love challenging dungeons

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u/Winterough 2h ago

Same story. Entered my first retail dungeon after Legion and no word of a lie it was literally a race to finish and hand gliders(?) around. Made me quit right there.

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u/Creative_Magazine816 3h ago

raider.io also ruined M+

mythic plus was so good for legion until the community made it unfun

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u/zzrryll 1h ago

I feel like it was good until MDI became a thing.

Before then people skipped trash but weren’t weird about it. Then the first MDI happened and you were yelled at if you didn’t run the exact correct route that the #1 rated team ran. Was pretty silly.

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u/disCASEd 13m ago

Uhh, nobody runs MDI routes in regular keys because the MDI routes are actually insane. They pull double, even triple the amount that a normal pug group would or even could pull and then take it all into a boss.

Idk what MDI’s you were watching or what m+ you were running but that’s not a typical M+ experience.

Now if you mean that people copy what the top keys on live are doing, yeah that’s true. But even then there’s variations based on what your group comp is capable of. For example, if you don’t have a rogue, you can’t do any shroud skips.

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u/G0rkon 2h ago

M+ in Legion was so much fun! I was tanking them a lot and enjoyed the then new concept of get just enough trash. Learning in real time which pack to and not to pull and how to skip past the more annoying packs. As I recall though, Sanguine can fuck right off!

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u/ArcticAmoeba56 2h ago

This is it though. None of these problems are designed into the game. The people, the players, the community make them a reality.

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u/Rico_Rebelde 1h ago

Players will always optimize the fun out of a game if given the opportunity. Part of the developers job is to prevent that

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u/ArcticAmoeba56 1h ago

Not all players. But certainly a solid majority it seems.

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u/Sad_Bridge_3755 17m ago

And it would be an easy fix. Just add some filters for players to choose. “Full Clear”, “Time Trial”, etc. People who want to speedrun queue for that. People who want to full clear queue for full clear, etc.

If people are still weird about it, introduce rewards for sticking to the playstyle you lined up for. Speed runners get rewarded on a time trial for beating bosses and dungeons fast. Full clears get rewarded on percentage of dungeon cleared.

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u/Lagkiller 1h ago

But they are designed into the game. Mythic+ sets a number of kills and puts a timer on. So it makes route planning and choosing the right packs to kill a design mechanic instead of a preference from players.

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u/ArcticAmoeba56 1h ago

Chosing to engage with it and how you engage with it , is still choice. If people didnt engagevso heavily with it then it wouldnt be a successful system and wouldnt attract further development investment

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u/Lagkiller 27m ago

When there is a timer, optimized routes are forced. There is no choosing how to engage with a timer.

And choosing not to engage with mythic+ means that you don't get end game gear, so you can either not engage in end game content or engage in the content that exists. Claiming that raiders should just not engage in end game raids because the system forces a timer is kind of ridiculous.

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u/MoskiNX 2h ago

Gearscore checks turned retail into the most toxic wasteland of an mmo.

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u/Scribblord 2h ago

Io Score was created bc the community made the mode unplayable by just being shit
So people desperately wanted extra filtering methods to have even a sliver of a chance to form a group that actually finishes the content

Evidently no one gives a fuck what you bring in current retail +10 keys bc you can carry bad players through them

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u/Dvveh 2h ago

How did r.io ruin M+? Just curious.

But yeah better to keep that type of gameplay to retail.

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u/Hextillian 2h ago

"Want to join my +2? You need a gearscore only attainable in +10s and world first achievements. Anything less is wasting my time."

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u/fishingncars 2h ago

If you have a ilvl only available in +10s (ignoring that ilvl caps at +8) why would you be applying for +2s? Your fake reality doesn’t even make sense

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u/Hextillian 2h ago

Go queue as a dps in retail right now and tell be I'm wrong. Yall are bullshit artists.

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u/fishingncars 1h ago

Yes it's impossible to push keys as a DPS!

That's why my friends and I are all currently resil 18 (all 3 dps), if you are having trouble joining other people's groups just push your own key. Then you can choose who comes!

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u/Dvveh 2h ago

That's not really the reality though.

It's a great tool overall. If I wanted to push keys, I could make sure to find people around my own level.

If I wanted to just do my weeklies, I could find lower level groups and help them out.

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u/fishingncars 2h ago

These guys just don’t want a score so they can be carried lmao

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u/Dvveh 2h ago

At least it comes across that way, yeah.

We checked peoples gear on the IF bridge 20 years ago, before inviting to raids. The checks have always existed to try and create a smooth run.

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u/Creative_Magazine816 1h ago

there's a big difference between making sure someone isn't under geared vs asking for high rio score to do a +6 or whatever

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u/Dvveh 1h ago

But nobody is ACTUALLY asking for a high score to do +6's.

Anyone doing keys below 10 should just push up their own ones anyway.

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u/Creative_Magazine816 1h ago

this guy right here is the problem I am alluding to

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u/fishingncars 1h ago

I'm sorry I don't want to brick my +18 key with someone who has never even ran a +5? it's a necessary evil to push higher keys

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u/Creative_Magazine816 52m ago

s t r a w m a n

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u/xedarn 2h ago

We had rio in Legion too

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u/Creative_Magazine816 1h ago

I don't remember getting denied over middle level keys back then based on rio

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u/sp106 1h ago

The timers also reinforce the behavior of rushing the whole time. Going fast should be its own reward not a requirement.

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u/587493 1h ago

Yessssss. People are automatically going to try to go fast, making that the requirement is a huge turn off

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u/Werewulf_Bar_Mitzvah 2h ago

This is valid. Though I will say, I know people have issues with BFA, but it’s probably the most fun I’ve ever had engaging with M+ (sadly I did not participate in it during Legion). I really liked the BFA dungeons.

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u/587493 2h ago

I cant speak of BFA as I didnt play, but my issue is even if I like the dungeons they will likely be played a in a really lame way where you are sneaking around packs and pulling things into some corner that doesnt aggro anything else or whatever

It just feels so inorganic I guess to me

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u/Werewulf_Bar_Mitzvah 2h ago

That's true, and there were a couple of sweat skips even back then in BFA that as the seasons progressed, you were just expected to know. Especially at higher key levels. However, it's just gotten worse since then where people are flaming others for not doing/knowing some sweat lord complicated skip in a +3.

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u/587493 2h ago

Yeah that's a great point. Being expected to know these strats is really terrible for anyone getting into it, like there wasn't enough to worry about already lmao

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u/Soulerous 2h ago

What you’re describing is the greater of two evils, I think. Would rather have some groups who spam dungeons than have most groups try to skip as much as possible.

Just make it so no one in the party gets XP for mobs who are grey to one of them. Boosting is gone, at least.

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u/MorteDeAngel 2h ago

IIRC this is already a thing on the Anniversary realms, and ngl it kinda sucked if someone levelled during the dungeon and suddenly you went from getting like 100-50xp per mob (or w/e it is) to like 5 because someone levelled from the mob xp. Considering that some dungeons have large level ranges that you want to be on the higher end of and some dungeon quests are quite hard to obtain for the level that is needed for the dungeon. If they changed that in Forever I'd be more aggregable with that solution though you could also make so that the acceptable level range is based on the highest level mob in the dungeon (max like +2 or +3) rather than "if its grey".

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u/Soulerous 6m ago

Good points. I agree.

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u/Rhinocacrocapig 2h ago

I really hate skipping trash packs, the amount of times I've been in a dungeon where we've spent more time skipping a pack than it would have taken to actually kill it is ridiculous, if someones time is that important to them that they have to min max every second, there are far better games for that

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u/Mother_Drenger 35m ago

In the same vain of optimizing to inefficiency: Ran WC with a tank that was insane about always doing LOS shenanigans and terrible at maintaining threat.

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u/raskeks 3h ago

TBH, It's not like in classic people are zoning into BRD to kill everything either.

Most of the time you do have a route and a goal in mind. Not every group will kill Rattlegore/Kirtonos/Vectus in Scholo or in Strath complete both live and undead or even kill all bosses including Skul and Ezra Grimm

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u/xXDamonLordXx 2h ago

No! We fullclear BRD in this house! /s

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u/MeccaMaster 1h ago

How do you not kill rattlegore and then open the door to the last boss/lich dude?

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u/Potential_Might_6500 2h ago

100%

It being a timed race, just brings out all the lame shit. The idea of modified dungeons is awesome.
What came from it was just high anxiety runs where you just rush.

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u/SzamosTheRealest 2h ago

Yea i stopped playing retail because of m+ and everything around it. Couldnt ignore it because i needed the loot for mythic raids so i bailed on the game bc of it

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u/RetPala 1h ago

"hey, come play this new game mode"

"What's it about?"

"Min-maxing playing the least amount possible"

Dude, wtf?

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u/lestye 2h ago

just want to enter a dungeon and kill everything.

I think thats why we have route planning. Without route planning, people would just skip as much as possible, especially at max level. So thats why they make it so you have to kill a certain amounnt of trash.

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u/greg939 2h ago

Amen man. I want to go in and have fun in an instance and pull a lot of stuff and have fun. Even in a place like LBRS. Let’s just kill stuff. Sure I got the experience to skip around but that’s not why I’m playing classic. I’m playing classic for fun full dungeon runs.

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u/old__pyrex 2h ago

Yeah, a great system would be one where "pathers' can do their careful pathing, and "I just wanna fucking do the dungeon" people can go plow through the dungeon. If we simply just balance xp so it's not overpowered, but it's still significant and valuable in dungeons, then both player types can happily go play however they want. And if you have a dungeon group where there's pathing-efficiency-addicts and there's kill-everything players... they can compromise and both groups can be relatively happy.

Blizzard never needed to solve this non-problem -- if they truly felt dungeon xp was overtuned for grinders, then tune it down slightly. Not nerf it into the fucking ground, a slight hit here would have been fine.

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u/renato_leite 2h ago

As a tank, I actually love route planning and learning skips in NM+, but I don't want that in Classic dungeons. I play both games for different reasons. I love Classic dungeons because they're slow, methodical, and offer benefits for clearing the whole thing. They need to bring XP back.

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u/Nessarra 2h ago

And if you pull anything extra it's the end of the world in M+ ... just pure toxic trash culture

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u/Dull_Improvement_577 2h ago

This is why I gave up on M+ and most dungeons and the annoying part is Blizzard develops these dungeons with skips and the like on purpose. Having to dismiss and resummon my demon as a warlock just ruined it even further.

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u/Key-Regular674 1h ago

I mean maybe to you. I personally love min maxing in any game. I also don't expect randoms to do it in my groups.

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u/DigiornoDLC 1h ago

They don’t want to play the game as little as possible, “play the game” just means something different to you.

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u/Yogsolhoth 30m ago

As a tank I enjoyed this a bit but generally only when I was playing with a consistent group and/or it’s deeper in the season and I’ve gotten more confident. 80% of the time it’s just pain and it makes pugging very stressful for everyone involved. 

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u/Opening_Tea_9459 1h ago edited 1h ago

This is not a retail thing. Different runs and paths were always a part of classic. Mara princess runs, BRD has like 6 different paths for runs, UBRS has several, DM a bunch, etc.

I have been skipping mobs in WC since 2005. Same with nearly every dungeon, and this has never been a problem.

Nearly all end game dungeons have alternate routes and paths that every veteran learns and must know.

There are fewer dungeons where you just enter and kill everything than those that have common alternate routes.

Do you guys even play Classic or are you just here to complain?

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u/ligma_then_sugma 1h ago

if you hate it then stop playing it's not hard actually